Mazz VI: Wisdom of the Mancers

[GodzFire]

I can't speak for Pyro or the others, but I had thought that the serious attempts would be when you were around so you could check things out.

Also, you can just use the 'Instant Win' key combo, and that will let you do the Next Mesh bug.

PS- Yea, it doesn't matter to me about the plugin size being a little bigger, I am worried about what is limiting you.

The following seem to be the worst offenders:
Monsters - The leveling units (13 for ele and pyro each)
Artifacts - Mancer crystals (11 each), and Bows. How many levels of bows again?

It's too bad the limits can't be upped because we still have to MAKE SURE, that a person with a Packard Bell computer and Pentium 2 processor from 1997 is able to play, bringing everyone else down.

Chris, is there a documented tag limits somewhere that lists the max of each kind? Like Lightning - 25, Monsters - 245, etc?

[Pyro]

I think the zerks already use a unique mons tags for level 2, so it's not like I'd have to free one up for them. And the script already checks if they're carrying anything prior to leveling them, so it's possible that MOMA can be used as a solution.

Yes, the serks do have a unique monster tag for level 2, you just need to make a unit tag to go with that. I bet you can delay the beta a bit to add it. It is an easy thing to add actually.

I wouldn't have made the leap between MOMA and mons tag switching being based off the same code...

Yeah I wouldn't either as well, however I just recall it didn't exist for artifacts before magma's updates. It was more of an extra bit of info on it.

The way it works is that a MOMA moves the "subj" right on the location of the "targ". So then you will need a CTRL to make the old unit invisible. Just have the level 2 units invisible somewhere on the map. Make one visible and MOMA it, then make the old one invisible. That is all. If you need a test plug to see it for yourself let me know.

...because he's found a way to randomize the enemy waves, at least to a certain degree. I'm not sure how, ...

It is called scripting. A script could easily be made to randomize waves.

Pyro, since you discovered the "next mesh" bug, was the current beta beaten on any difficulty?

Yeah, a few of us beat it on legendary. Not that hard. We did lose some units due to the host's lag, but it didn't stop us. Though it might be that having thrall accidently count as 2 kills made it easier for units to vet up quicker.

[ChrisP]

I can't speak for Pyro or the others, but I had thought that the serious attempts would be when you were around so you could check things out.

I know, I can't believe they seriously attempted it without me either!

But nah, while most changes I make are based upon how the game "feels" to me and thus it'd be much more useful for me to be there, I can't play every night like the old days - so I'm not going to make a fuss over this. Like I said, I would just appreciate it if the old betas are deleted when a new one is out.

How many levels of bows again?

Umm... normal, mega, ultra and celestial, I think. Haven't looked at them yet, but like I said, I'll be removing one level and combining the rest. Monster tag limitations are the worst, by the way.

It's too bad the limits can't be upped because we still have to MAKE SURE, that a person with a Packard Bell computer and Pentium 2 processor from 1997 is able to play, bringing everyone else down.

Nah, I can't believe the little bit of extra memory required would create any sort of significant slow down. Myrd just wants to increase them a little bit at a time, hoping each time gives me an excuse to make a Mazz 7, 8, etc...

Chris, is there a documented tag limits somewhere that lists the max of each kind? Like Lightning - 25, Monsters - 245, etc?

In the Loathing docs, though I think it might be a little out of date as I believe the Monster limit is 96, not 64.

The way it works is that a MOMA moves the "subj" right on the location of the "targ". So then you will need a CTRL to make the old unit invisible. Just have the level 2 units invisible somewhere on the map. Make one visible and MOMA it, then make the old one invisible. That is all. If you need a test plug to see it for yourself let me know.

I keep wanting to play devil's advocate against this idea, but am running out of excuses. The truth is I'm lazy about scripting this so that a few lines handles all the zerks. Seperate actions for each individual zerk would be relatively easy, but it would waste tons of valuable scripting space. My Myth scripting skills are narrowly focused and rusty, and nesting MOMAs, or whatever it would take, gives me visions of getting mired down in bug city.

However, Iron helped me with Mazz VI by writing a zerk script that basically already does what's needed - just with artifacts, not MOMAs. If I understood how it worked way back when, I certainly don't remember now.

Eventually, I'll probably bite the bullet and try to make it work, just not in the next beta which needs enough work as it is.

Yeah, a few of us beat it on legendary. Not that hard. We did lose some units due to the host's lag, but it didn't stop us. Though it might be that having thrall accidently count as 2 kills made it easier for units to vet up quicker.

Hmmm... well, I'm sure almost 1000 or so vet points made it easier. Out of curiousity, do you recall how long the game lasted?

[Myrd]

Loathing has a menu item to show limits.

EDIT: Also, film of the win here: http://projectmagma.net/~myrd/MDv3LegWin.zip

[hmp]

As pyro said, the 2 kill thrall probably helped us a lot, but I think you might want to make the first thrall waves iron thrall as in SL. As it is, the extra big thrall waves in the beginning just allow you to vet up even easier. Game lasted about 2:10 I think, finished with 6 players using mazz/pal/mancers/mort/fg/rang and melle. Also, more boss units would be a good way to keep up the pressure without giving lots of easy vets.

One idea: instead of leveling the arcs or other units, give them a permanent hp boost. I think you could just have a lightning action target the units when they vet with a bless or similar projectile. I think that could be great especially for arcs as people would be more willing to play them if their super vetted archer squad was a little less fragile. IMO the problem with vetting arcs is neither them not being powerful enough nor getting them vetted, it's that even a fully vetted arc controlled by an excellent player can end up dead very very easy.

Another idea I had was to make the DL slowly drain health until he dies, instead of just timing out. That would allow you to speed up the process without trying to kill him outright. I think it could be balanced by making him stronger, faster, and more damage resistant.

I like what I have heard about the changes to the mancers. Im not completely sure about the bows. Although I can see the benefits you described, my concern would be that if there are not as many bows there is even less reason to keep the arcs.

Lvl 5 for the fg and mort... I guess I can see this going both ways. On one hand it will be a little harder to max out the mort and fg, but it could also make them even more dominant than they already are. Having lvl 5 only a little stronger than lvl 4, and lvl 2-4 weaker is definitely the way to go though. I guess as long as a lot more enemies than the extra 5th lvls will require are added it will be ok.

I wrote a long rant about vetting, leveling up, unit balance, number of players, and a bunch of other stuff. But ill just summarize it by saying:

-it bothers me that it is usually a good idea to suicide a bunch of units

-it would be awesome if winning leg required a big team working well together (or a small team obsessively playing dozens of hours).

-its better if people have to focus on how to kill the enemy rather than how to kill the enemy before someone else does.

[spa]

of note - I just ran through my freshly loaded - and still smelling of pine balsam - Mazz 6-ver 3.

I must have missed the meetings - for I thought a few basic things that were wrong would be the priority fixes, and modifying other elements would be extra.


notes from tonight:

Leveling up still scrambles the inventories (if holding an RC) for Ele and Pyro - which can cost lives at critical times. This fix would be hugely appreciated.

Some herons still don't turn to hero - no matter how hard you (or they) try.

Gabba went OOS again tonight, hope he saved the film, if he didnt - I have it as last played.

Any reason pyro's fireballs would still be bouncing off wights, fetch, locks, ghost arcs?... is that just the dud script from the dwarf or something screwy?

[Archer]

As pyro said, the 2 kill thrall probably helped us a lot, but I think you might want to make the first thrall waves iron thrall as in SL. As it is, the extra big thrall waves in the beginning just allow you to vet up even easier.

In the absence of double-vetting I'd argue this isn't a problem; FG in particular is obnoxious to vet without access to enemies he can one-shot while he's still slow.

Another idea I had was to make the DL slowly drain health until he dies, instead of just timing out. That would allow you to speed up the process without trying to kill him outright. I think it could be balanced by making him stronger, faster, and more damage resistant.

I utterly oppose any suggestion of making him faster; with regard to more damage resistant, that'd just make the health-drain useless (if it isn't already) because you simply can't do enough damage to him in an efficient way to kill him, short of having a giant stack of Eldritch Lances in your inventory and the ability to hit him at their point of maximum damage every time. Stronger just further punishes people who don't take along a dedicated spotter or two.

~J

[GodzFire]

Gabba went OOS again tonight, hope he saved the film, if he didnt - I have it as last played.

I don't blame Mazz for this, I blame Gabba.

As far as the D/L goes. I think the idea of his energy slowing draining is an excellent idea, because it gives you a visible idea of how long he will last and help decide whether you need to move again or not. I do NOT agree with making him any faster or more powerful. He can already wreck havok when players don't get moving, and some will refuse to move; the D/L is the only way to make them.

[Gleep]

I always hated the DL. Mainly because I liked playing as the archers and they are the hardest units to migrate. Would be nice if there was a rare mazz crystal that could gate the DL off the map.

Failing that, he really doesn't need to be stronger or faster! He's annoying enough already!

[ChrisP]

I must have missed the meetings - for I thought a few basic things that were wrong would be the priority fixes, and modifying other elements would be extra.

Thanks for the input, Spa. It's only the first beta of many and I'll get to everything I can in due time.

Leveling up still scrambles the inventories (if holding an RC) for Ele and Pyro - which can cost lives at critical times. This fix would be hugely appreciated.

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, giving "weapon" artifacts (like RCs) to units that also use artifacts for leveling creates all sorts of minor bugs. Not sure if I can fix this one without drastic measures (like major scripting additions or Myrd adding new code to Myth 1.7.1), however, in the case of Mancers, a semi fix will be that there's just not going to be that many rechargers for them to carry around any more.

Some herons still don't turn to hero - no matter how hard you (or they) try.

Yeah, was never able to fix this one back in the day, and that's when I knew what I was doing. I'll look at it again though.

Gabba went OOS again tonight, hope he saved the film, if he didnt - I have it as last played.

Hmm... well, the OOS film and a matching non-OOS film are required before I can even ask Myrd if he'd look into this.

Any reason pyro's fireballs would still be bouncing off wights, fetch, locks, ghost arcs?... is that just the dud script from the dwarf or something screwy?

It's actually an intentional fear setting for lower level fireballs, and they can bounce off any unit, not just the ones you listed.

[ChrisP]

As pyro said, the 2 kill thrall probably helped us a lot, but I think you might want to make the first thrall waves iron thrall as in SL. As it is, the extra big thrall waves in the beginning just allow you to vet up even easier.

Well, that'd make the early part of the game harder, but wouldn't really change how much the units vetted once those thrall were killed.

Game lasted about 2:10 I think, finished with 6 players using mazz/pal/mancers/mort/fg/rang and melle. Also, more boss units would be a good way to keep up the pressure without giving lots of easy vets.

Almost 100 bosses were added already, but don't start spawning till after the 2 hour mark. I'm guessing the extra fast vetting allowed you guys to more easily finish the map in 2:10. And this should be the goal, so as to avoid the extra bosses, but it should be more difficult without units leveling so fast.

One idea: instead of leveling the arcs or other units, give them a permanent hp boost. I think you could just have a lightning action target the units when they vet with a bless or similar projectile. I think that could be great especially for arcs as people would be more willing to play them if their super vetted archer squad was a little less fragile. IMO the problem with vetting arcs is neither them not being powerful enough nor getting them vetted, it's that even a fully vetted arc controlled by an excellent player can end up dead very very easy.

Again, this has already been done. The arcs start out with about 10% more health now. I really like the lightning idea, but am not sure how easily it can done considering how "full" Mazz is already. I will look into it.

Another idea I had was to make the DL slowly drain health until he dies, instead of just timing out. That would allow you to speed up the process without trying to kill him outright. I think it could be balanced by making him stronger, faster, and more damage resistant.

I prefer that players not have an indicator showing how soon the DL will expire. By the way, I think he's already very close to being as damage resistant as possible. The only planned change to the DL will be to make its duration slightly more random.

I like what I have heard about the changes to the mancers. Im not completely sure about the bows. Although I can see the benefits you described, my concern would be that if there are not as many bows there is even less reason to keep the arcs.

There will still be at least 75% as many bows, and those will be more powerful to compensate. And going back to making the archers harder to kill, these bows will add somewhat to their damage resistances.

-it bothers me that it is usually a good idea to suicide a bunch of units

-it would be awesome if winning leg required a big team working well together (or a small team obsessively playing dozens of hours).

-its better if people have to focus on how to kill the enemy rather than how to kill the enemy before someone else does.

I couldn't agree more. I've already been giving this a lot of thought and will continue to do so. Again, you have to kill things very quickly to avoid extra bosses after 2 hours, and though I think you guys managed to do that with super vetted units, my hope is that normally it will require the fire power of all available units working as a team to accomplish this.

[gvari]

I thought the reason some Heron Guards never vet is that if they all vetted there would be no one capable of using the crystal.

Now that I'm talking about Heron crystals, I wonder if increasing the chance they are dropped is possible?

They are certainly not game breakingly powerful, and I feel they are way too rare.
Out of the dozens, or over a hundred Mazz games I've played through I have not seen purple crystals more than perhaps six or seven times.(This could of course be a strange chance.)

[Deqlyn]

Crispy, did you check to see if there were enough HG artifacts per HG available to vet. i.e your script could be for 12 heron guards but only 11 artifacts are on the map and able to be placed to script.

At least that is how I thought you intended it cause there is an HG cry dropped every now and then which would make 12/12 crys.

[dac]

hey cp, wanted to give you a heads up.

we played through and beat the normal difficulty level. we held onto more units than i normally like to when running thru the game, and the black thrall spawned at the 145 mark.

the mort died in the first bit of the game, i think before the first pig wave even came. it meant NOTHING. the mancers regenerated mana obscenely fast, and they killed everything.

with the electromancer alone i was able to use BOLT on ghost dwarves indiscriminantly and never suffer the consequences. I had to use chain twice in a row (and be vetted enough to do so!) before I could even use an inventory0 mana recharge.

the pyromancer spent the whole game hellfiring boss units (which is good for lols) but the balance is knocked off completely.

i finished with 18 charges worth of rc (i think 2 5s and an and never ever ever thought about using it ever. the onlyt ime it was selected was to reset my spell order.

I do not find this new version to be more difficult. If you are trying to make the game harder, you need to add more boss waves with less meat units in the beginning. Having the extra stygs on the first styg wave is kinda cute, but the reality is that you're just giving more free vets to the mort and fg to make sure that they cap out ASAP. I'm sure you've seen the 4man films, the capped out fg is pretty good, the capped out mort is absolutely insane and its actually hard to lose to non boss units with these.

I would say that instead of the extra free vet units (thrall, pigs, sks, etc) you add more hard bosses to the beginning of the game forcing you to handle them ASAP (maralith is the best unit choice for this i think) while etting overrun with the normal sized waves. This would actually make it harder - mazz seems (to me anyway) to be won or lost in the first half hour of the game. random stuff happens later on that can make you lose, sure, but if you can get thru the first couple waves unscathed you are probably winning.

when i was new to mazz the wave that always kileld me showed up around the 1:10 -1:20 mark, it was a pig and thrall wave with boss units to boot and beholders stoning and liths coming in etc etc and thats when the game gets hard. The game is not hard by having a pyromancer cast 7 walls instead of 5 just in time to vet up insanely and be able to kill off waves by himself when he full vets and recharges mana quickly.


I think you would be well served by removing some of the extra free vets from the early waves and replacing them with a few annoying bosses. again, the lith i think is the prime choice because in the beginning you have plenty of melee to deal with beholders or just about any type of dragon and the lith's mana confusion could cause headaches while other units try to overrun you.

since this thread started out with questions about mancer use, let me go ahead and share what i've seen in the winning games that i've been in (quite a few)

pyro should use wall on pigs. pyro can kill pig waves all by himself. thrall are generally left to the fg or a whoring mort.
this can of course change if the fg is fast enough to tank the pigs himiself. if you want to avert this problem, try using units that would be unaffected by firewalls and throw them in with the pigs. Ive heard people say myrks run thru fw - this is news to me but if thats the case then have the myrks go to town while pig waves are rushing. the game will get harder if you combine the waves properly, but if you just throw 30 pigs at us instead of 20 you're just making it easier cuz it means we vet faster while dealing with the headaches.

btw... i HATE that mazz can use the dispersal dream for 40% mana when he's maxed. I think a much better ability would be mana telekinesis (as godz suggested) or for 100% mana use to create a random crystal (not necessarily mazz - mb hg duff pal or whatever could be doable too!)

but the 40% dispersal just makes it that much easier. I think that the new version is actually significantly easier than the previous full version release of mazz 6.

just my two cents.

[Archer]

I'm not sure how it would actually be implemented, but a possible replacement for the Demon Lord in the force-people-to-move-around-the-map role might be to introduce a unit that doesn't respect visibility, tends to not move much, and does something that's dangerous across the entire map and gets worse over time, forcing the group to go and deal with it.

(In the larger sense I'd also have liked it if there was some incentive to trying to hold the center island; right now it's a no-go zone except possibly during the early parts of the endgame, trying to clump the Black Thrall for a Dream (and maybe trap the Watcher in a big mob; I remember we managed to do that the first time we beat Mazz IV, took off about half his health that way))

Anyway, both of those are probably too big for v3, but maybe keep them in mind for VII

Going back to more immediate matters, I haven't had a chance to look at the latest beta, but if you're looking for space in the monster list have you considered getting rid of the Imperial Guard? It adds a little flavour having a special dude along with the Myrmidons, but he's only slightly tougher than they are, and I'm not sure having one guy left standing after the rest get obliterated is worth very much; I certainly wouldn't be sorry to see him go.

~J