Project Magma on iPad

[spongefile]

But as Myth gets updated for Linux, Lion and so on, what are the terms under which that's done? Could an iPad be considered a next step in an upgrade? Has Take2 explicitly or implicitly forbidden this? From reading this thread, it seems like no individual at Take2 has any idea regarding the scope of the terms?

As far as I understand it, two options:

1. "Clean room" version, meaning building Myth from scratch, without looking at original code. Massive effort, rights sketchy, apparently pointless.

2. Port existing version. Less effort, rights unknown? This is the bit I'm fuzzy on, and have been left with the following impression of what's been happening:

Myth Enthusiast: CAN WE MAKE MYTH FOR THE IPAD??!?!?! OMG PLS PLZZZ
Take2 Employee: uh, what was that? Myst? I don't...ooooh. Yeah, that. I dunno what's up with that property. Ask Joe.
ME: Joe? Joe? OMG MYTH IPAD PLEASE GOD
Joe: Huh? Did Mary say I knew something about this? Nono, she meant John.
ME: John? Is this John? John, you know Myth?
John: Shh. We do not speak of it. Horrible legal traps lie within. Begone.
ME: Wha? Buh. Buh NOOOOOOOOO

Is this about right?

[vinylrake]

The question of who would own the rights to a port of an existing Myth game to a new hardware platform is quite clear.

TakeTwo owns the intellectual property rights to the Myth series of games, as well as the Myth games themselves. Technically and legally, they could even take the latest version of Myth 2 released by ProjectMagma and repackage it under the TakeTwo brand and sell it and keep all the money for themselves. (That much I do know about the TakeTwo agreement)

I'll leave answering the specifics of the agreement TakeTwo made about updating the Myth series of games to someone who knows them.

[Jon God]

Really, it's because the iPad is more of a closed platform than linux, you'd still need the game to play it, while I don't think that would be the case with the iPad.

[spongefile]

Really, it's because the iPad is more of a closed platform than linux, you'd still need the game to play it, while I don't think that would be the case with the iPad.

Isn't there a serial number that comes with the physical Myth CD? Could one require a valid serial number for the iPad version to work?

I'm sorry if I'm asking questions that may have been discussed ad nauseum already--I haven't found those discussions, and this is the first one where I've gotten concrete answers.

[Graydon]

The serial numbers were specifically for Bungie.net online play. Bungie.net has been down for over 7? 8? years now...... I know for sure that I lost my CD B.net serial a LONG LONG time ago. I'd imagine that only bungie had a list of legit serial codes and verified them on their website when someone new signed up after buying the game. Even if modern players did have their serial codes, there'd be no way to verify them at all.

It's just simply never going to happen.... end of story, sadly.

[spongefile]

Please bear with me/humor me/etc.

- What have Take2's comments been, if any? This is the most mysterious bit--last mention of it in this thread is "apparently there's some sort of legal entanglement that makes them not want to discuss Myth at all." So what's this?
- When I download Project Magma, it says I have to have the original CD in order to play. What does Project Magma check? Is it just that the base install comes from the CD, and then Magma updates get loaded on top of that? Is it possible to have a script check if the original CD is in the drive (compare CD contents to what the contents should be), generate a code that's attached to a username, send that to a server and give it to the user, and then require the user to type those into the iPad? (I have no idea how easy/difficult/possible this would be)

I'm asking all this because I keep seeing people saying "forget it, never going to happen" but still don't get where exactly the bottleneck block is. Once I do, I'll shut up.

If Take2 owns the rights and says no, we simply don't give you permission to make an iPad version, even if you send us the money from it, that would be a clear and obvious end of story, but apparently that's not the case? Or is it?

[vinylrake]

projectmagma's version of Myth doesn't check to make sure you actually have the CD or that your copy of Myth is "valid", it's just that Project Magma's version of Myth II is an UPDATE, NOT a standalone application. Technically it is the entire Myth application, but if you haven't done a 'full install' from a Myth II CD, or you don't have all the files that came ON the Myth II CD (from doing a 'full install') Myth II won't work.

fyi: Myth II hasn't needed the CD in the drive for several years now.

[Pyro]

At one point there was an attempt to get them to allow Magma to host a download of the full game that can be purchasable (with the money going to T2), but to even get the lawyers to make the needed documentation would require thousands of dollars.

You also have to consider the magma devs might not be interested in working for T2. It is one thing to continue updating the game on systems that were already supported and required the CD for the rest of the files and another to make an app out of it that would require doing a lot of work to get it to work just so T2 gets the money.

So there has never been a "no", but things can't proceed without a "yes". And sometimes to get a "yes" you need to pay. Over the years people have shown up with an idea to bring Myth to new crowds. All required contact with T2, all were confident they stood a chance, all have failed. They either get redirected to someone else who doesn't know or care, or hit a wall where something big was required. Then they disappear with their broken spirit.

[vinylrake]

assuming taketwo isn't going to suddenly give the rights to Myth away, an ideal hypothetical situation (though not a legal one) would be if some non-magma coders were given the m2 code so they could write a new game that would play like myth and be compatible with existingn maps and plugins. i'd assume any game written 'from scratch' - even if modelled on an existing game - could be written with mobile devices in mind.

[spongefile]

Ok, I get the install thing. I didn't mean the disk had to be in the drive to play the game, but in order to play the game at all, you need the CD, so proof of having paid Take2 = proof that you have the CD. So I was trying to think of a way to prove you had the CD, and to have that unlock the iPad version.

I'd love to know what exact walls previous attempts hit, and if the walls were made of money, what the amounts were. One can raise thousands of dollars, but getting around stubborn individuals in a bureaucracy is another matter.

According to Melekor on this thread, "A simple port might take a few days to a week to hack together and I could see a full high quality port taking 6 weeks to 4 months for 2 developers and 1 interface artist, depending on design decisions, tradeoffs and additional requirements that may come up like the compression thing."

So if one would pay devs, say, $50/hour, all working full-time, that's $2000/dev/week, eg $6000 for a simple demo port. (Full port according to the above would be up to $96000 IF everyone was working full-time that entire time.) These are the sort of specifics that would be useful. One person's definition of an impossible, attempt-stopping amount of cash is another person's pocket change.

No need to get one's spirit broken--if people who tried and failed would explain exactly what happened, the problem would be framed more precisely, the chance that someday someone can fix it would be higher, and the attempt would not have been a waste of time, because it brought back valuable info. For example: "I needed $3000 for a lawyer to get a document that said X, to give to Y" or "I ended up talking to Joe at Take2, who wouldn't hear of it, was extremely suspicious of PM, and convinced we were trying to steal things." Cash can be a solveable issue(there are things like http://www.indiegogo.com/, for instance), and Joe may someday get fired, or someone may know someone who knows him personally, or things may otherwise shuffle around at Take2.

I'm not saying "oh, but you see, you've all been doing it wrong, and I would succeed", but rather if the problem isn't outlined very clearly, you lose the advantage of having the next eager beaver (and there will always be more of those) be able to build on what was learned before, so they don't waste their energies hitting the same walls.

[Graydon]

The whole _point_ of an iPad version though, would be to expand the game of Myth to a new audience, a new group of players. If you restrict it to existing serial numbers attached to CDs... it still means there's only as many players as there are say on Mnet right now... that is, people with Myth CDs. All that work for the maybe handful of people on Mnet that own iPads? Hardly worth the time investment.

The bottleneck is Take2 as a company and trying to talk to them period. To put it metiphorically, as you outlined before, the buck gets passed around in an infinite loop, and never ends up getting to the part of the machine that will reward you with the candy. Take 2 won't talk about Myth. It's this that causes end of story.

Edit: Linux is at least a computer OS, so the changes required to the game source properly weren't hugely drastic. Re-writing the game for a touch interface is. (No point making the argument that Magma just updated for Linux, it's a moot point.)

Edit 2: For an example of what I mean, check out the thread below this one that punkuser posted about a tablet with a real OS. He suggests it'll run M2 out of the box.

[spongefile]

In that case, the problem for the next enthusiast willing to tackle this is as follows:

- Find a real human being at Take 2.
- Find out why they won't talk about Myth.

Go internets, go!

[vinylrake]

Edit: Linux is at least a computer OS, so the changes required to the game source properly weren't hugely drastic. Re-writing the game for a touch interface is. (No point making the argument that Magma just updated for Linux, it's a moot point.)

Not sure what you mean here.

Magma didn't port Myth II to Linux (as you noted paranthetically)

iOS is a computer OS, just a narrower one limited to a specific hardware platform.

The MythII game wouldn't have to be re-written for a touch interface, the interface libraries would need to be replaced and related input code modified so that gestures get mapped to what are now keystrokes/mouse-events. That's NOT trivial work, and I imagine there would be a ton of testing and tweaking to get the gestures to feel "right" to get the in-game actions working right with the input events - but assuming there's some level of abstraction in the code between the keyboard/mouse input events and the game code/logic itself and the key names themselves aren't hardcoded into the core of the game, it should be 'just' the UI library/interface-code that would need to change. again - NOT trivial work, but much smaller in scope than "re-writing the game". [also, not saying this is all that would need to be done to port the game, this is just addressing the question of what would need to be modified to support the different input model in an iOS device]

as usual, i am not magma, am not associated with them, i don't even program games (anymore) and have never done so professionally so take my comments with a heap of salt.

[Graydon]

You're arguing semantics VR.

Ok. The whole UI portion of the game would have to be re-written.

Last time I checked, UI was pretty much prevalent in all aspects of the game. Every menu, and a whole friggin' stack of buttons and key commands in game. That's re-writing a damn good portion of the whole game. Unlike the Linux update/port/modernization. Ultimately we're arguing the same fact- it's too much work for a volunteer group to tackle. Especially if they know they won't make a penny off it.

[Jon God]

In that case, the problem for the next enthusiast willing to tackle this is as follows:

- Find a real human being at Take 2.
- Find out why they won't talk about Myth.

Go internets, go!

I've been around people that have had direct conversation with Take 2. Take 2 didn't seem to care, it wasn't that they were suspicious of anyone really, it took them a while to even realize they owned Myth.

As for why they don't talk about it, rumor I heard from someone back in the day, was there was some kinda internal scandal, as for weather that's true or not, I have no clue. All I know is that when myth is brought up, they eventually go: 'oh, right, gotta go, bye' after some conversation.

There was even the idea of trying to get Myth on steam.(Hey Take 2, free money!) but they didn't seem really interested without money thrown down first.