MYTH total war at TWC forums

[A-Red]

I'm not sure it makes sense to have trow skin tinted as though it's heraldry--it's their skin, after all. It seems to me that in the games, they tended to take on the color of their surroundings--in TFL, at least, the pale blue trow was in the snow, the green trow were in the forest, and the reddish trow were in the desert.

Unless the game requires them to have the same colors as the rest of their faction, in which case there's really not much to be done about it.

[Pyro]

That seems to be in TFL, in Myth2 they all seem to be similar shades of sky blue.

[Briariuss]

Hi A-red and Pyro,

I think what A-red pointed out about the the trow's skin makes sense. Unfortunately I have no choice, I'll either go with colors by factions idea or no color variations at all.(which is in the case in MythII according to you Pyro). I like their color variations though, it really helps identify them on the battlefield.

In total war there is no such thing like was in Myth that in a multiplayer match the engine generates color variations. Everything is determined by the unit's texture. The color identification in total war do exist though, but by a thing called: Banner. I disabled banners in this mod cause I think, a huge red or green floating flag above a unit is kind of a cheating ( that's my opinion). (You obviously shouldn't see which direction is a wight come from? Right? )

So that's the case. What should I do about it?

[Pyro]

You should do the best you can within your limits. Having color variations based on factions is better than no color variation at all. People here won't know the limits you are working with, so don't think they are disagreeing with your choices. Every now and then, they might just want a reason to understand why you chose what you chose.

[Briariuss]

Thanks Pyro, I'll leave the colors by factions idea then. Unfortunately I do have annoying limits, the game even has special "hardcoded" limits, which you can't or you're not allowed to touch. Anyway, I'll continue to work on the mod and we'll see how things turn out.

Until then, check out the latest unit I've made.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthre ... st10526942

[Graydon]

This came up in discussion earlier on Udogs HL.....

These models you're making, are you viewing them and editing them in a model app? Is this app able to display the animations and render them off frame by frame?

We were saying it'd be really cool to create a Unit Conversion for Myth that does what you're doing... replaces the original units with artistic re-interpretations of themselves. If you're able to render units off, or teach someone else how, it'd be pretty viable to make a Myth plugin based off your incredible work already.

Edit: I think it'd be super cool to say you worked on a TC conversion project that got applied to two entirely separate games!

[oogaBooga]

Thats a cool idea gray but it would be kind of a step backwards if you think about it..

Myth is great at 2d sprites. Making 2d sprites of 3d units that are low polygon because theyre being rendered in a 3d engine is kind of non-sequitur..

I love the units briarius is making i just dont know if i agree that making souly-style blender-looking angular low-poly models of units that already exist in higher detail would be all that useful. I think the charm is that briarius is making them in an engine that is supposed to be low-poly. But on the bright side if you _did_ get some total war style myth renders you would have a consistent look with the souly units currently being used in TFV.

[Jon God]

Thats a cool idea gray but it would be kind of a step backwards if you think about it..

Myth is great at 2d sprites. Making 2d sprites of 3d units that are low polygon because theyre being rendered in a 3d engine is kind of non-sequitur..

I love the units briarius is making i just dont know if i agree that making souly-style blender-looking angular low-poly models of units that already exist in higher detail would be all that useful. I think the charm is that briarius is making them in an engine that is supposed to be low-poly. But on the bright side if you _did_ get some total war style myth renders you would have a consistent look with the souly units currently being used in TFV.

Myth is 'great' at 2D sprites only because that's all it's done, (Myth 3's implementation was half assed) in the long run, I'd rather see 3D models in Myth 2. If total war can do hundreds of units with this kind of detail, and Myth II can run maybe a hundred units rendered at 4x, with it pulling a lot of computers to a crawl, it seems like 3D models is the route to go. That and Briar's unit models versus the original unit models. While the originals have more polys, I can't imagine that (at least in terms of the light units) that people would say the original Myth 1/2 unit models looked better.

My 2¢

[oogaBooga]

We're talking about different things here JG. You're talking about actually coding 3d model support for units. I'm saying rendering low-poly souly blender style units as 2d sprites is a step backward, not actually putting 3d units in myth.

And actually I dont much care for the idea of 3d units in myth, unless it was an entirely new myth title designed from the ground up. And I gotta say, sounds like "most computers" slowing to a crawl are close to a decade old - almost any reasonably modern computer from the last 5-10 years can run even the bloated high def units en masse, given the right preferences. It would be silly to expect to run an "HD Tribes" game (like the one coming out) on a system as old as the original tribes and get good frames. I've done a shitload of stress tests on very large collections and the minimum system requirements for being able to play, say, a 6 man FFA level with a lot of action going on is not that high.

Briarius models are amazing for being in-engine units on that type of game (which has a great unit detail scalability which myth lacks) but they definitely dont replace or fit in with the art direction of myth 1/2. They look distinctly total war.

[Jon God]

We're talking about different things here JG. You're talking about actually coding 3d model support for units. I'm saying rendering low-poly souly blender style units as 2d sprites is a step backward, not actually putting 3d units in myth.

And actually I dont much care for the idea of 3d units in myth, unless it was an entirely new myth title designed from the ground up. And I gotta say, sounds like "most computers" slowing to a crawl are close to a decade old - almost any reasonably modern computer from the last 5-10 years can run even the bloated high def units en masse, given the right preferences. It would be silly to expect to run an "HD Tribes" game (like the one coming out) on a system as old as the original tribes and get good frames. I've done a shitload of stress tests on very large collections and the minimum system requirements for being able to play, say, a 6 man FFA level with a lot of action going on is not that high.

Briarius models are amazing for being in-engine units on that type of game (which has a great unit detail scalability which myth lacks) but they definitely dont replace or fit in with the art direction of myth 1/2. They look distinctly total war.

Ah, okay, misunderstanding, Yeah, I can see what you mean. Though, tbh, having seen some of his units at render size/angle, you can't tell.

Well, it seemed for some of the high res projects, (carl's greek plug, TWA, etc,) that even newer computers, laptops/mac minis were having trouble. compare that to, say, Myth III (and it's half assed 3D units) while not well optimized, runs smoothly on my computer, and some of the HD projects drag my computer down to a crawl. I'd think a nicely optimized 3D engine for the units, would far surpass the beauty of sprites, and would run on much more systems smoothly.

Plus, 3D units allow for so many new features, you could make randomly have some warriors be females, or have different types of swords/axes, something you cannot do without lot of tinkering in Myth II; at which point, it cuts off a lot of things you can no longer do. Scripting, and artifact related.

There is also 'tween' animations and blending, which is very hard to do with sprites, and would allow for transitions between walking,running, or walking, and fighting, rather than abrupt changes to the animation.

Another feature that could be added is stuff like vehicles, multiple units riding around in a jeep, or on horse back. Mix that with being able to shoot while moving, and maybe shoot not directly in front of you.

And what about if a texture is off when you render, you need to re-render the entire project.

Also, how's about units getting bloody over time, via combat, blood staining their clothes, after large battles, and/or having limbs chopped off, but still being alive. (oh, and think about arrows stuck in units!)

Anyways, I should stop before my post becomes *too* bloated. (haha, too late for that. :/ )

[vinylrake]

while i am sure most modern computers can use the hires units in M2 with no lag, machines with integrated graphics chipsets sometimes cant - like MacMinis and the non-pro laptops.

i know this is a common comment i am making, and i am not complaining, just pointing out that it's not an accurate generalization to say that just 5-10 year old computers have problems with the hi-res units. when i was testing carl's greek units my comp was less than 2 years old and had a 2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo CPU - not the highest end, but nothing to sneeze at at the time. and i had coma inducing lag - and that was only a 2-3 player FFA. it was apparently the embedded graphics chip that caused the lag or the VRAM or the pipeline between the components (i am not a hardware guy i barely understand how these things work).

[Briariuss]

Hi,

I second ooga's opinion about sprites in Myth. I think my models are good for a 3d engine, like Medieval2TW, but Myth can do a lot better with 2D sprites. Although I'd lie if I said a Myth plugin with my units wouldn't make me proud and happy.

[punkUser]

Although I'd lie if I'd say a Myth plugin with my units wouldn't make me proud and happy.

Personally, I think that would be a great idea! If you or anyone else are interested in doing something like that (i.e. setting up and rendering out the sprites), PM me or find me on hotline as we've got a bunch of cool stuff in 1.8 that would help a lot with a project like that

[Jon God]

Hi,

I second ooga's opinion about sprites in Myth. I think my models are good for a 3d engine, like Medieval2TW, but Myth can do a lot better with 2D sprites. Although I'd lie if I said a Myth plugin with my units wouldn't make me proud and happy.

By any chance did you make a TFL Myth villager?

[Briariuss]

Hi,

I second ooga's opinion about sprites in Myth. I think my models are good for a 3d engine, like Medieval2TW, but Myth can do a lot better with 2D sprites. Although I'd lie if I said a Myth plugin with my units wouldn't make me proud and happy.

By any chance did you make a TFL Myth villager?

Hi Jon God,

No, not yet. The only peasant type unit I put in was the peasant milita unit. Unfortunately there is no chance to make battlefields filled with civilians. (No wailing villagers running around. )
I'd like to put this unit though,