Myth Kickstarter Project

[oogaBooga]

I think the vague assumption inherent in the pitch would be that the money would go towards getting people to do the stuff that they themselves cannot. Which would probably cover the 'original music', 'level artwork', so on and so forth.
--- Edit ---
Forgot about the license.

We already have all those and yes we have been doing it ourselves.

Also Ive seen a ton of dumb incorrect assumptions about reward tiers, budgeting, etc and it's quite obvious you don't know just how capable we are and that we've already got everything laid out in the GDD. This community is unfortunately a lost cause and you just proved it to me without a shadow of a doubt. Have fun strangling yourselves to death slowly while myth dies. I had fun for a while but you guys are literally the most vitriolic, hateful drama-filled community i've ever seen. I come back with an olive branch and a chance to renew myth and you toss around idiotic and unbased assumptions that we cannot accomplish this.

In three months we accomplished more with 1.7 and the Bungie models than magma ever had. They had the models for YEARS and never did anything with them.

Me and renwood got ahold of them and within 6 months we had an HD multiplayer demo featuring classic m2 gameplay with revamped everything from ambient life to particle effects to every piece of scenery on every single map.

What the fuck have YOU done other than make new things for Mazz? Get over yourselves. This could have been a great collaboration if you guys would only understand the only people holding on to drama from the past is Project Magma. We're actually adult enough to have accepted any and all of you into our dev team, but the fact of the matter is that we don't need you to create all 25 levels of single player, multiplayer levels OR scripting. We dont need you for anything, actually.

We just wanted to work with you, but it's apparent that you have nothing to contribute to us that we cant already do with the exception of a coder (who will get far more done in a very short time than you ever will, especially because he'd be getting paid for it).

When you guys grow the fuck up let me know. Until then, enjoy Mazzarins Demise 7.

[oogaBooga]

PS you're all going on about a "plugin"

You obviously don't understand even a single part of our game design plan if you think it's just the tagset with a few images spruced up.

Thank you for proving your collective ignorance. I have a better understanding of why you're saying the pathetically untrue statements you continually regurgitate. You are all apparently under the assumption we wont have access to change Myth's code. You're also under the assumption the content we have planned is just the same old thing from the tagset. Will there be resources from the tagset? Of course. It only contains things that make Mazz look haxor in their variety, physical properties and overall fun of use - and all with higher quality graphics than anything any of you combined have ever produced.

So sure, we dont know what we're doing. We only ALREADY did what could be considered a Myth HD reboot, the only units we're missing are Bre Unor, the Baron and a few other random things which we could render if they weren't hideous and below our production standards. We've since decided we dont want to have the "HD" units as anything other than a placeholder until the rest of the zBrush guys can be retopologized and rigged for animating.

Really, nothing you guys ever acknowledges the fact that i've created far more impressive units behaviors and attacks than any of you. You cant stand to admit that i'm talented, so you pretend that i'm stuck in the tagset mode of years ago.

Sorry, i'm beyond that shit. This is actual game development. I can guarantee i've thought of everything a new Myth title needs that you have not. Every single little thing, from pathfinding improvement to feature implementation to possible coding hurdles to what the new interface will look/behave like. I've thought of everything, and there's nothing negative about any of it. It's all very possible and would make a better game than you all together would ever be able to produce, with your inherent egotism and tedious infighting (which me or ren obviously dont need to be present for - you guys were just as bad to each other when we werent around, really sunk home just how in love with arguing and drama you guys are when I was able to see that on a very consistent basis).

So how are those ridiculous models coming? Having fun altering the body parts to have blood and gore on them? Good luck with the warlock! I'm sure you'll be done in the next few years.

[oogaBooga]

We can also do fake myth games! ignoring all intellectual property laws and copyrights! Oh Yeah!!

You DO realize that we havent violated any laws, right?

Take a look at the "final fantasy soundtracK" album project for kickstarter. Successfully funded without the initial license, acquired license upon funding, legal beagle.


Quick quiz - how many of you know that magma releasing updates has ALWAYS BEEN EXTREMELY ILLEGAL?

How many of you also know that MAGMA IS A LEGAL NON=ENTITY?

ANd how many of you also know that magma has been LYING about their legal status with take2, and that there has NEVER BEEN ANY SUCH AGREEMENT which legally allows magma to alter the source code. Ever.

Youre lucky I dont get you guys in trouble with take 2 - the only reason I dont do that is because I dont see a reason to be a spiteful douchebag, even if you guys would do it in a HEARTBEAT if our situations were reversed.

Think on that. I have no motivation to make Myth die by exposing your illegal actions to take 2. I would gain nothing and Myth would suffer.

But it's getting to that point where i'm not really inclined to cover up your illegal actions if you continue to be unsupportive and abusive.

[William Wallet]

"They had the models for YEARS and never did anything with them"

On this, you have my full agreement. They should've been 'leaked' by 'accident' years ago.

"This is actual game development"

Having spent a lot of time playing Kerbal Space Program in the past year, I've got to say that the indie scene is pretty promising. There's nothing stopping a bunch of lads (or lasses) from going and making their dream project. Using KSP as an example, some people in Mexico have made a game with huge potential, and the only reason I'm mentioning them is that (unlike a few other popular indie games at the mo) they didn't launch it with Kickstarter. Mind you, there might be cartel money behind the scenes, but that's none of my business.

"We dont need you for anything, actually"

Why didn't Ren say that in the video then?

"We already have all those and yes we have been doing it ourselves"

Was any of the music in the pitch video eligible for inclusion? I liked the second piece (the reworked Myth one) although one might investigate some better strings libraries.

"nothing you guys ever acknowledges the fact that i've created far more impressive units behaviors and attacks than any of you"

I honestly can't say I agree with this. Some real quality stuff has been made by modders over the years. As much as I like to take the piss out of these regular ding-dongs in Myth land (it's my cultural imperative) I really am blissfully impartial - I have no investment in either side of the argument. And it makes no sense for you to be pissing on the work of others, because quite a lot of it has been very good. If you've got issues with the Magma guys or their attitude towards you, then that should stay the focus of your diatribe, because you're not going to get them on 'bad work'.

But anyway. I remain hopeful that something comes of all of ... this. !

[ozone]

This is good OOga.. Keep it coming!!! Make it BLEED!!!

[Road]

Wow, I didnt even know this post existed here.

Well I'm not here to flame or get flamed. But I figured it was a good place to say "Hey guys!" since I havent been around for awial. I will assume that I was removed as a member of Project Magma because of this, which honestly doesnt surprise me "how many times have we asked you not to play with that Renwwod guy?" and I havent contributed to any projects for a long time.

I have pretty much gone from making mods to working on 3D animation and models as a hobby, regardless of whom I am making them for I hope you at least appreciate the effort I have put into the models. The models are more based on Juan ramirezs Concept art than the units that are actually used in M2. The video doesnt do them much credit, you can see them a little better at: http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/ee3/Roadwyrm/MythIV/

Looking forward to 1.8, it looks like everyones really excited about it and looks to include a lot of great features! It's great to see all of you guys still working hard on your projects and even if I have been removed from the team I can always say that I was a proud member.

Keep up the great work!

[:) Da Cid (: McCl]

Also Ive seen a ton of dumb incorrect assumptions about reward tiers, budgeting, etc and it's quite obvious you don't know just how capable we are and that we've already got everything laid out in the GDD.

...

You obviously don't understand even a single part of our game design plan if you think it's just the tagset with a few images spruced up.

Thank you for proving your collective ignorance.

If anything you've proved that a shitty, vague pitch for a project of this scale does not get you $450,000 in two weeks.

You've got everything laid out? Show us. Give us some news that is actually impressive. Show us a plan that lets us know, as experienced Myth users (mapmakers and otherwise) that your endeavour is actually worth $450,000.

Nothing I've read about your project gives me the impression that it's more than a total conversion (with some engine tweaks, the only one you've shown is apparently developed by Magma), and that's your fault. 90% of your kickstarter pitch was talking about all the dumb tiered rewards you get, and the other 10% was you saying "THIS IS THE FUTURE OF MYTH, EVERYONE BAND TOGETHER NOW FOR THE REVOLU-" blah blah blah. And for all your bitching about how amazingly talented you are at making units and envisioning dreams, the four units in the video were made by Road (who seems very detached from this by the looks of his post), the one new feature you've talked about was made my Magma and the rest looks like plain, vanilla Myth gameplay... I dunno, did you do the 3D model for Renwood's head? He looks very life-like, well done.

Look, it's great that you want to make a big new campaign. It's great that you want to redo all the models, make all new music, etc. But you're never going to get $450,000 from random strangers on the internet who haven't played Myth and have no interest in it, and you're never going to get $450,000 from experienced Myth users who actually know what the fuck you're talking about.

That is really the only point I'm arguing, and I'd love to hear a direct answer from you about this topic in particular. How did you think you could get half a million dollars in two weeks? There aren't enough people on Earth who know or care about Myth enough to make that kind of money in two months, let alone two weeks. It's a sad fact, but it's true.

Frankly, I'd love to hear anything from you that isn't "yeah well you're just jealous because we're amazing and you guys haven't done shit", because that's already getting very tiresome.

One more question I want to ask is, why don't you just put your efforts into creating a new game? Do it in Unity or something, that's relatively cheap and relatively simple to use. You could recreate a rudimentary Myth engine, and if you had the help of actual coders it might actually be really good. It could all be 3D, you could oversee the project and make sure it feels like Myth II as opposed to Myth III. HDR graphics, SKYBOXES, the works. And you could actually sell it.

I don't know why you're so intent on spending so much (of other people's) money on a 12 year old game engine. Nobody would have done this for Marathon, the lucky part there was that Bungie is a nice company and let it go for free. People would be much more inclined to spend their money on a cool new, original game (even if it's based on Myth) than you making tweaks to the Myth II engine. I think Will made the point earlier that I think everyone made fun of, but it really is pertinent to this situation: George Lucas wanted to remake Flash Gordon, but couldn't, so instead he made Star Wars.

Go make Star Wars. And stop dumbing every argument down to "we're so much more talented than you", because in terms of estimating how much money the internet has to spend on your dreams, you are not very talented. That seems like a big stumbling block in your project.

[ozone]

"They had the models for YEARS and never did anything with them"

On this, you have my full agreement. They should've been 'leaked' by 'accident' years ago.

Well.. Ooga and Ren have the models now.. Maybe they will sell them to you as Ren did with Godzfire? OR ... ohhhh,thats right... that was a DONATION.

I mean it makes you wonder why neither Ren nor Ooga have accidentally leaked them if they are so noble?!?!

[William Wallet]

Well my forecast on the models front is that someone, somewhere, eventually, is going to send me them.

Without telling me which program I need to open them with.

[punkUser]

LOL!

[Melekor]

ooga, you do understand that the kickstarter would still be failing even if everyone on this forum supported you, right? You're raging at magma, but we aren't the ones stopping you from achieving success.

[ozone]

[Death's Avatar]

Hi Road!

[vinylrake]

Ooga, if people are making 'ignorant assumptions' it's because neither you personally nor collectively on the kickstarter site have provided enough information to counter those assumptions. I know because I've read everything you've said here and I've read everything on your kickstarter project page. Your basic response when asked about anything related to the project has been "trust us, we can do this". Regardless of past politics or personal conflicts in the community, that's not going to convince anyone who thinks rationally. Either provide information people need to convince them or stop whining and blaming everyone for not trusting that you can complete your vision.

If you want people to trust in your vision for a new Myth game in addition to more clearly articulating your dreams and goals for the project you should be able to provide something that demonstrates that you have both thought about, planned for, and can handle all the aspects of creating a game - all you've provided so far is a tagset of (as nice as they are) of higher rez units. That's not enough to convince anyone you can handle and deliver a project the size of the one you are hinting at. I wouldn't have contributed cash to Cydonian - the creator of (imo) some of the best 3rd party units ever created for Myth - if he had a project team with a couple of other unit makers who wanted to create a new Myth game, because creating units is just one skill among dozens needed to create a total conversion/new game. If I wouldn't contribute to his project, why then should I contribute to your project? (It is difficult to word this in a neutral way, but I will try. As good as your units might be, I don't believe they are on the level of Cydonian's units. If your units look better that is because the game and hardware now supports larger sprite graphics, not because you are a better unit-maker - finer-detailed images alone don't make units 'better')


As an example of not providing enough information to counter an 'assumption' and not showing that you have thought about/planned for the tasks necessary to delivering your project successfully - I saw that some of your rewards you are offering people who support your project depend on either mariusnet agreeing to make changes to their server to support your donator-tags, or on setting up your own game server. Everyone has heard that Renwood has a lifetime ban from Mariusnet so I would guess that would preclude your working with mnet or getting them to agree to change their server so I assumed you were going to be going down the path of setting up your own server which you could add your customization to. When I asked/commented about whether you had considered the time/effort/work involved in creating/running your own server your dismissive response was "the bungie server code is free"(possibly paraphrased) - which doesn't address the actual level of effort required to create/maintain/support a player registration system, a scoring/tracking/stat system, integrating those files/databases with the bungie server code, etc. You've also said that you are all moving on to making games in other environments and leaving the myth world so that raises the question of who is going to be paying for the hosting of this new game server (has to be a fixed IP and be a windows OS, can't be a vanilla webhost) who is going to maintain it? This is one TINY part of your overall project but without an intelligent response it appears you don't seem to understand or possibly have even thought about what's involved.


I am sure you've tuned out at this point because I am not being enthusiastic enough about your project but a word of advice which I mean sincerely - as I have everything else in this post - Road seems like a nice enough guy, I haven't dealt with him enough to have a strong feeling about him one way or the other, but he seems reasonable and I don't have any negative opinion of him at all. That he can drop into this nuclear firestorm you have triggered and be civil and polite without feeling the need to jump in and defend the project or attack people who have been critical of the project's future says a lot about his character. (good things) Given this - and given your and Renwood's proven inability to deal with anything other than fawning adoration without flying off the handle and insulting everyone who asks you questions, if you are serious about wanting to raise money or generating any support I think it would be in your best interests to put Road in charge of all the PR functions and project updates for any future projects you guys undertake.

[GodzFire]

Since the history between myself and Renwood is pretty much well established, I'd prefer to just get the answers to the following questions, some of which Mel has already touched on a bit. Also please note that I am not a member of PM myself, and can't comment on their behalf. I'm just simply interested in the information.

1- Have you had communication with Take 2 to be approved for this project?

2- Do you have permission to use their copyrighted materials?

3- Your promo video includes updates and features made by Project Magma. Are you assuming that these will be available for you to use when you haven't communicated with PM about it? Essentially, without PM's permission, it seems to me you would need to use the most recent version of Myth 2 which wasn't updated/altered by PM code, which I believe is version 1.3.

4- Since MariusNet has banned Renwood from the server for his part in previous 'undertakings' and no doubt would not collaborate with your project as it's game metaserver, are you planning on taking the released open source Bungie.Net code from about 11 years ago and then update it into a format that would be compatible with what I assume would be a new game server?