Mazz VI: Wisdom of the Mancers

[Myrd]

Is there any plan to fix the bug where a level 2 zerk can't pick stuff up?

[GodzFire]

You're clearly better at holding back with him than we are; like I said, our problem isn't vetting him, it's keeping him from sucking up hundreds of kills that other units need after he's fully vetted

Once I have the Ranger vetted, I only focus on helping stop midbosses like the Beholder, Maralith, Lich, etc. Besides that I do a little killing of the warlocks, since Ranger's usually the only one who can reach them. I do not TOUCH any of the mobs enemies.

The big problem with a Hero is that I'm pretty sure ChrisP has said that the level is already at the unit cap; something else would have to come out.

If I remember correctly, the Hero ability is actually just an artifact. That's how the 'Mancer inventory and levels are done, each one is an artifact. I know this because I had to alter them in order to get my invincible units

Is there any plan to fix the bug where a level 2 zerk can't pick stuff up?

That's RIGHT Myrd! I keep forgetting to bring that up. As it stands, I almost don't want my Zerk to level, because he loses the ability to pick up items, which is really needed if Mazz doesn't have Telekonisis. Chris, would it be possible to allow Zerks 2 inventory slots, with the first being the hero crystal which he can't drop, and then a spare slot for pickups?

[ChrisP]

Is there any plan to fix the bug where a level 2 zerk can't pick stuff up?

A lot to reply to here again, but I'm glad you brought this one up.

I spent a lot of time attempting to resolve the zerk issue years ago by trying different methods - none of them satisfactory. The limitation is in how Myth handles inventory.

Essentially, there are two types of player units in Mazz. They all use inventory, but one type uses artifacts primarily to "level" (mancers, dwarves, FG, zerks and heron) and the other group just uses artifacts as weapons (Mazz, paladin, ranger, arcs). Combining leveling artifacts with weapon artifacts is very tricky. I get away with it somewhat, but in each case, there are problems, the zerks being a case in point.

The zerks are allowed to pick up only one item, and they use that inventory slot for the artifact that allows them to level as well as for the item they carry carry for other units. Once they level, their sole inventory slot is filled by the leveling artifact and they can no longer pick up anything else. Iron helped me with a sophisticated script that checks the zerks to see if they're carrying anything prior to leveling them. Obiviously, you don't want the game to try sticking a leveling artifact in a unit that already has a full inventory.

The obvious solution seems to be to allow zerks to carry two items - and we tried this over a couple betas - but it was problematic for reasons besides the fact that level 1 zerks could carry around two items for players. It also meant that while carrying an item, a level 2 zerk would revert back to level 1, since only one item in inventory can be active at a time. And I can't remember exactly, but I think there was another problem as well.... maybe it was zerks would be able to drop the leveling artifact, or that it caused the script that checks for carried items to bug out, or something else to do with the fact that they were carrying around projectiles (the way a ghol does) and not just zerk artifacts. I can't remember, but I know I felt that level 2 zerks losing their "mule" ability was the lesser of the evils.

Similary, the arcs and the ranger don't level, because you can have a level 1 arc with a magic bow, or you can have a level 2 arc, but you can't have a level 2 arc with a magic bow.

Which brings me to my 1.8 wish list! Or the beginning of it anyway.

1. A way to flag an artifact to fully swap a monster tag, not just superficially as it does now, meaning with such a flagged artifact, a level 2 arc could still pick up a bow and remain a level 2 arc.

2. A preference to swap the bottom formations bar with an inventory bar. Instead of buttons for formations, custom icons could be placed on those buttons and clicking one would swap the item in inventory. If custom icons were missing in the plugin, the buttons would default to number icons (0,1,2, etc...). The selected button would remain hi-lighted to indicate what was currently active. To make it super cool, you could ctrl-drag the buttons or something to rearrange the order of inventory. Obviously, the buttons would need to update as you selected different units. When multiple units are selected the bar would just be blank or something, though I wouldn't object to a system that allowed the bar to be used for multiple units of the same type with the same inventory. While all this would probably be a ton of work, it'd make the inventory system much more ergonomic and appealing.

Back to work, but I'll try to reply to more of the posts later.

[Myrd]

Can't you use MOMA to swap the zerks for level 2 ones, rather than through artifacts?

And 2 already exists, check your control prefs.

[Archer]

Once I have the Ranger vetted, I only focus on helping stop midbosses like the Beholder, Maralith, Lich, etc. Besides that I do a little killing of the warlocks, since Ranger's usually the only one who can reach them. I do not TOUCH any of the mobs enemies.

It's usually those plus the annoyance enemies (Fetch, Ghost Dwarves, Wraiths, etc.) that he's taking, but it adds up a lot faster than you'd think.

If I remember correctly, the Hero ability is actually just an artifact. That's how the 'Mancer inventory and levels are done, each one is an artifact. I know this because I had to alter them in order to get my invincible units

But each one is also a Monster; the artifact makes the original Monster into the new-level Monster (or new-spell Monster) while it's selected.

Anyway, I've got some thoughts for scripting enhancement, but I'm going to leave them until I've earned me some credibility by getting the headless servers put together.

~J

[ChrisP]

Can't you use MOMA to swap the zerks for level 2 ones, rather than through artifacts?

I dunno, can I? I now have some scripting space, but that wasn't the case with v.2. Still, it would require using a few lines of script to handle all the zerks as opposed to a few lines of script per zerk, and it would probably have to be nested properly within the few lines that check all the zerks for leveling eligability, so if your question is can I personally use MOMAs to be that fancy, then no, probably not.

But, when it comes to using MOMAs this way, wouldn't there be an issue with the facing? Movement? Health? Mana? And what happens to any objects the level 1 zerk is carrying at the time?

And 2 already exists, check your control prefs.

Whaa..?! Wait a minute, this does not count towards my satisfying my wish list if you did it before I asked!

[Pyro]

How do you think the artifact monster swap originated from? If you look at the Myth 2 solo level "Twice Born", you will see that Alric is MOMA'ed after his fight with Soulblighter. So the map swaps Alric with Balmung with Alric without a sword.

As for the script, you would need a to find a berserk with enough kills then use the same MOMA like in Twice Born and that is it. It would require the berserk hero unit to be on the map and uncontrollable so you can't see him until after the swap.

[ChrisP]

If you look at the Myth 2 solo level "Twice Born", you will see that Alric is MOMA'ed after his fight with Soulblighter. So the map swaps Alric with Balmung with Alric without a sword

Alright, pardon any ignorance, but Alric is player controlled at the time and facing, movement velocity, health, etc... all match exactly after the MOMA? And even if so, I still have serious doubts if a zerk who was carrying say, a randomly dropped paladin crystal, would still have it on him when replaced via MOMA.

[Archer]

Alric is deselected if currently selected, and new-Alric is not under player control.

~J

[Myrd]

I believe MOMA is also used in the same way to swap zerks on Deceiver when they pick up scepter.

[Pyro]

CP the new unit takes on the attributes of the old unit, like I said... how do you think artifact monster swapping started? It had already existed just not using artifacts but scripting. However the artifact they may carry stays with the old unit. But you could make the script force the serk to drop whatever it has or wait until the serk has nothing on them before the script makes them a hero.

The Deceiver map swaps the serks? Are you sure? I just thought it was an artifact that can be carried by berserks, but who knows I didn't bother checking.

I could even make you a test plug so you can see it for yourself if need be.

[ChrisP]

Interesting, Pyro. I think the zerks already use a unique mons tags for level 2, so it's not like I'd have to free one up for them. And the script already checks if they're carrying anything prior to leveling them, so it's possible that MOMA can be used as a solution. I will have to play with it, but right now the priorities are to tie up the half-finished work I'm in the middle of so I can release the next beta.

I wouldn't have made the leap between MOMA and mons tag switching being based off the same code because, intuitively, the orginal monster is still there at inventory slot 0, and not completely replaced as a MOMA would do. I guess it's like a MOMA that can swap them back and forth on the fly? If so, it still begs the same question: is it feasable to have an artifact flag so that it permanently replaces the old monster tag rather than have it stay available to swap back to. In other words, the new monster tag becomes inventory 0 and the old one just deletes (or whatever MOMA normally does with the old monster tag). While this may seem redundant since it can be scripted, I can still think of powerful uses that would be nice to have available via tags rather than scripting.

[GodzFire]

Chris, in an effort to help you clean up the Mazz tags a bit and maybe remove some unneeded stuff so you could implement other items, I used Oak/Fear and made a list of some potential areas/ideas:

- Seemingly Excess Units
Rabican
Rahab
Balor (His lightning attack is for Deathbolt)
Ghol?
Wight?

- Extra Animations not used in units that could be added
Zerk Block
M2 Dorf Stab (For PF and Strider as a last resort attack like Fir'bolg's punches)
Pyromancer Exit Stage Left (This animation would be perfect for something)
Mort Melee Attack (Same as Dorf stab)

- Unused Collections
Lich Cluster Ball FX (Includes a bunch of WW2 stuff which could be removed)
Nebula Ball
Requiem Solo Postgame
Mazz Raid Overhead
Laser (Unless this is for Beholder's attack, which if so, could be added to another collection)

- Collections that could be combined to save tag slots
Artifacts (There are many random artifact collections that have small amounts of bitmaps that could be combined into a single one, thus freeing up more collections)
Myrm and Myrm Dust
Rabican's Lightning / Rabican's 2nd Lightning
Whirlwind and Whirlwind Scar

- Blank bitmap spaces in collections
001 fMazzSpgs VI

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- Remove string lists: This depends on if reducing the number of string lists would allow for other things to be added elsewhere. For leveling units below, each level requires a new name string and string for each attack they have. This all could be eliminated by simply referring them by their absolute names, IE Forest Giant and Storm Cloud, instead of Forest Giant Level 2 and Storm Cloud 3. Anyone can easily tell this by the ammunition icon in their status bar which lets them know)
Pyromancer
Electromancer
FG
Mort
Pathfinder

- Combine Strings?

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Just some thoughts since I know you always talking about hitting the brick wall with limitations. When you speak of that, do you mean limitations due to Loathing Script, or Fear Tags?

Also, I must say I'm very sad that the Secret Level has been removed. For Mazz, it's come to the point where players know the initial spawns so well, they go to those areas right away, IE a thrall mob in the south-eastern corner which the Paladin goes to for a Heal Burst. It really ruins the excitement of the game. Everyone these days is pretty much good enough to beat Mazz on Legendary, there's just no challenge. Secret Level was the ultimate challenge, which really put your skills to the test.

One of the reasons I really enjoy Gleep's Dream Of Death is because he's found a way to randomize the enemy waves, at least to a certain degree. I'm not sure how, but when you start off the game, you might get the first Taken Thrall wave from the West, or you might get two small groups from the North and South. This, as far as I can tell, continues throughout the game. That spontaneity is a very welcome breath of fresh air.

[ChrisP]

A few belated replies…

CP, you still have the mazz mesh pointing to the SL. So after you win, and you try to next mesh... crash.

Thank you, will fix.

Also why does Mazz get mana for?!

He can use mana based dispersal dreams when fully vetted.

If I were to make significant changes to the Mancers, I'd probably add slow mana regen, possibly increase the basic mana recharge a bit, get rid of super-rechargers, make standard rechargers a little less rare than super-rechargers, narrow the range of charges (4 to 6 or 3 to 5, maybe, instead of 1 to 9), and maybe reduce the recharge percentage to 5%-7%. Oh, and probably give them the Super-Recharger's recovery time. That might still result in mana being too scarce, but it'd make the amount of mana that one potentially has access to over the course of the game a lot more reliable, so you can actually plan for it.

Slow mana regen – check.

Slightly increased basic mana recharge – check.

Get rid of super chargers – check.

Make standard rechargers rare but not as rare as super chargers – check (for now).

Reduce recharge percentage – It’s staying the same for now. If anything, I might increase it slightly since the basic recharge amount was increased.

Super charger’s recovery rate for regular chargers – Staying the same for now. I believe, however, the rate is increased by vetting.

Narrow the range of charges. – Doubt I’d ever be tempted to do this as I like the lack of predictablity and hoping for something real good to drop. Afterall, much of the game is about getting lucky and finding the right drops. Reliablity means games start to be the same.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa.......why the heck would you do that? It would totally destroy the Mancers. Chris there are games where, due to the people involved, the mancers have to pick up the slack and do more than usual, or worse if one of the mancers die. If your changes go through, they will be worthless, and also no one would pick them up for a small group game.

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with this.

Take it easy before I triple mana costs and make Flame Path require ammo drops only obtainable by allowing a trow to kick the pyro in the nuts! Most of the player units are getting minor boosts. Would I really make the mancers worthless? The idea is to make them easier to use. Try the new system first before saying how awful it is.

Is it possible that these "certain units" also include say, demos, so that they are a little more helpful? Not that I've minded the games where I've been handed them, but it would be great to have something better to do than steal kills from the more worthy units while hoping to find a H&A crystal somewhere... that the strider hoors haven't already stolen.

One huge, oh-my-god-would-be-awesome request is for arcs to hero. If this statement of yours extends to them for a mana attack of some variety, or just a boost in hp/resistances I would just.. I'd just cry like a girl.

Demos will see a slight boost, though I am still debating on the best way to do it. One idea, using the projectile to monster trick is to make a bomb with a homing device, so that it moves to a nearby enemy and sticks to them till blown up. That’d be cool, wouldn’t require scripting, but it would require a monster tag and those are already at such a high premium, especially considering that I’m already removing two to allow the FG and Mort to vet to level 5. Incidently, for the FG and Mort, level 1 will be identical, but levels 2 through 4 will be slightly weaker than they are now. Level 5 will be slightly stronger than level 4 is now.

As for the archers, I have no plans to allow them to level. Not only is it a pain in arse to implement leveling for multiple units that use many different weapon artifacts, how often do arcs vet enough to level anyway? In fact, vetted arcs are actually powerful, but the problem lies in getting them vetted. Unfortuanetly, there is no gradient between their current vetting rate and doubling it. Several betas had the rate doubled and it turned out to be overkill.

So, my plan is to change the bows. Right now each type of bow comes in different power levels (normal, mega, etc…). I plan to remove one of the power categories and “compress” the remaining ones. Normal bows will be rarer, but more powerful, on up to celestial bows which will be slightly more common and slightly weaker. As it stands, so many bows can drop that they start to liter the map, and it can be very difficult to manage a half dozen or more arcs all with different bows. I think the arcs will get what they need by having fewer, simpler and more useful bows.

[ChrisP]

Godz, thanks, but I haven't hit the limit for either collection or string tags. Many (all?) of those collections are in there because they contain sprites used by projectiles in the game. Balor's collection just for his lightning attack, for example. It's wasteful in terms of file size, but doesn't really affect the game. Making new collections with all the extraneous stuff edited out is a huge chore for someone who hates editing collections, so people will just have to deal with the extra 5 or 10 meg or so download.

The areas at their limit are:

-Monster tags
-Artifact tags (will recover a few of these by getting rid of some bows and a recharger)
-Object tags (many have already been combined, but there might be room for one or two more)
-Lines of script (ok with this one for now, but it'll probably get filled again before final)

There were a few others as well, I think. Lightning tags and projectile groups maybe, I'm not sure.

Everyone these days is pretty much good enough to beat Mazz on Legendary, there's just no challenge. Secret Level was the ultimate challenge, which really put your skills to the test.

Mmm... I think v3 will be a little harder on legendary than SL was.

Pyro, since you discovered the "next mesh" bug, was the current beta beaten on any difficulty?