Renwood Clears up many Myth 4 questions
Aye there isn't many people around anymore that can model units well, and those that are still around don't want to help, despite the fact that unit models is really the only thing our project needs to reach the finish line (everything else is well on it's way to being complete).Tireces wrote:Making new units models is proly the biggest problem, isnt it ?
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Orlando the Axe
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Re: You guys
In case you don't know my life got turned upside-fucking-down a while ago, and now i have to juggle college and a job AND work the fuck out of myself doing a million amber sequences and fear jobs.It's you ooga who makes ME sad, letting Renwood do all the talking for your project when he seems incapable of answering simple straight questions.
I do NOT apologize for not talking in place of renwood. It isn't my job.
I do NOT take responsibility for what he says to the public - i cant fucking take the constant load and frankly i hate forums for the exact reason this post even exists - DRAMA.
I do not have the patience or room in my life to battle the misinformed on forums - all it does is eat up time I could be using making the campaign better.
Why the hell do you think im never on forums? I know you all love to argue and everything but if youll fucking excuse me i have a life to live and instead of worrying about what you all think about what MIGHT be going on behind the scenes - IM GOING TO MAKE THE PRODUCT SPEAK FOR ITSELF. If it wasn't worth working on I wouldnt be working on it.
(Section Omitted)
Youre all so hung up on labels i notice the LAST thing you guys have ever discussed was the actual content we have up. b38 has about 5 entirely new alpha-mapped 16-framed special effects sprite animations - and the version i plan to release tonight will include 3 more entirely new ones - so as far as original content is concerned expect more than just re-colored stygians for new units - we are paying actual modelers a contract with real money and we are already receiving renders.
Entirely new units are concretely guaranteed.
So basically it comes down to this - i'm aiming to work hard on a project
I believe strongly about. If youre not with me, the least you could do is NOT be against me.
I have enough resistance from people who aren't my peers to have to worry about holding all your collective hands every step of development, when its not even my job.
Renwood might not be the most eloquent typist or speller, but if you were to talk to him for maybe fifteen minutes about the campaign over the phone (which is all it took for me to figure out he was actually an extremely intelligent individual who is chock full of knowledge directly pertinent to making good stories and a good myth campaign). Renwood doesn't get credit for being the badass partner in crime he is - without him half the cool ideas I had wouldnt have existed if not for his influence.
People seem to think we don't have a plan, or a design doc. We do, but it's in pieces. Currently they reside in Arizona with ren, and every level's goals and overriding story are outlined. Are we showing all of this off to the public? No. Are they good design docs? Most definitely. We both had a hand in the story structure and making sure we kept it feeling "mythy". We want to revisit the black company esque gritty realism of The Fallen Lords, but using tricks in the myth engine people haven't seen before. The thing that made me finally decide to work with Ren was the first phone conversation we had where I asked him about his quote in which he referenced "His Myth 4 Story". The way he described the cohesive vision as a visceral tragecomedy had me hooked.
Unfortunately most people I meet on the internet(even on myth) have some irrational phobia about talking to someone over the phone - like theyre going to be molested over the phone or something. That just demonstrates how immature most of the people I deal with are - they sacrifice a vital opportunity to network and get far more accomplished than text ever could convey. Subtlety is lost in text, and laziness prohibits expressing all thoughts. corners are cut, things are lost. Renwood and I get far more accomplished with a real-time dialogue (for those too homophobic and childish to consider talking on the phone, voip is a great alternative).
You really wanna know about TWA? Call us on the phone. If youre not scared.
-ooga
Last edited by oogaBooga on Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Okay im actually here on a forum for once so i'll do my best to answer.I second this feeling. There are some simple yes/no answers to a lot of these questions that people are asking...
I consider it a plugin. Ren says he doesnt want to work on anything less than myth 4. He wants it to be more than "just another plugin". I do not hold the same views as ren but I believe in the project no less than if I had renwood's exact sentiment.Are you making a plugin (but grander than the usual sense)?
The engine features (wishlist features) we want are just that - wishlist features. We have had one wish granted already thanks to the same guy who programs the new updates (such as 1.7). We are hoping it wont come down to having 2 versions - we are trying to get these (COMPLETELY OPTIONAL NON-CORE-GAMEPLAY ALTERING) map making features and basic gameplay features assimilated with the 1.7 release.Are you making a new application?
The previous question sort of answers this, but basically we of course understand 2 different apps is nutso, and we never wanted it that way. Ren's idea to get a new build made came at a time in which we did not know about 1.7 and Ren truly believed no more updates to the game would be made. The community was experiencing a draught and we thought well "We can get a few features added so long as it does not become incompatible with the normal version".Are you planning on modding the myth engine in ways not normally possible with plugins?
We have since decided that the wishlist features, if theyre good, would be better used as suggestions to Myrd and the other coders who are making 1.7 currently.
I hope that answers your questions, if you have any more, let me know.
-ooga
i guess the upshot to seeing another flame war is that there are still people around with enough passion to care about things. *sigh*
on the one hand, i share others' reservations about the grandiose (not to mention arguably reckless) nature of ren's claims. the damage that could be done to the community by attempting to peddle a supposedly brand new game with the myth name (owned by T2) and the myth engine (also owned by T2) in the face of T2's direct words to not do such a thing - the way ren seemed to be describing it - is unconscionable, if one cares about myth's survival for as long as possible. although commendably enthusiastic and ambitious (in as far as the actual TWA project itself goes), i think much of ren's recent rantings have been over the top. my advice would be to keep what you say about the project and your ambitions low-key, factual and, above all, clear - unless it's official publicity like, say, the cortana transmissions, in which case there should be no confusing it with project information or either of those with your particular ambitions for it.
recriminations aside, however, on the other hand, especially from what ooga's just written, the idea of the project as at least "just" a myth expansion, from the more grounded things i've now read about it, makes my mouth water - it makes me hungry for playing a new campaign. i actually have, for some reason or another (or maybe none at all), a good degree of confidence that this will see the light of day. hell, i could be wrong, and quite easily so, but i guess the fact that people are spending money on making it happen must give me that extra edge of belief (not that other things people have spent money on have never fallen through, but it's an indicator of commitment).
anyway, i'll keep my eye on this. i'm looking forward to seeing screenshots and more when it's ready.
on the one hand, i share others' reservations about the grandiose (not to mention arguably reckless) nature of ren's claims. the damage that could be done to the community by attempting to peddle a supposedly brand new game with the myth name (owned by T2) and the myth engine (also owned by T2) in the face of T2's direct words to not do such a thing - the way ren seemed to be describing it - is unconscionable, if one cares about myth's survival for as long as possible. although commendably enthusiastic and ambitious (in as far as the actual TWA project itself goes), i think much of ren's recent rantings have been over the top. my advice would be to keep what you say about the project and your ambitions low-key, factual and, above all, clear - unless it's official publicity like, say, the cortana transmissions, in which case there should be no confusing it with project information or either of those with your particular ambitions for it.
recriminations aside, however, on the other hand, especially from what ooga's just written, the idea of the project as at least "just" a myth expansion, from the more grounded things i've now read about it, makes my mouth water - it makes me hungry for playing a new campaign. i actually have, for some reason or another (or maybe none at all), a good degree of confidence that this will see the light of day. hell, i could be wrong, and quite easily so, but i guess the fact that people are spending money on making it happen must give me that extra edge of belief (not that other things people have spent money on have never fallen through, but it's an indicator of commitment).
anyway, i'll keep my eye on this. i'm looking forward to seeing screenshots and more when it's ready.
*toot*
all of 'ren's claims" have been true.
Just some things have changed so we dont have to keep the exact same path. you can never please evreybody. and no matter how hard you try, people will think what they want to. no way to change that. im noticing why all game devs never mention too much about their projects.
all the haters here werent going to help anyways so... gg!
-Ren
Just some things have changed so we dont have to keep the exact same path. you can never please evreybody. and no matter how hard you try, people will think what they want to. no way to change that. im noticing why all game devs never mention too much about their projects.
all the haters here werent going to help anyways so... gg!
-Ren
Persica purnus constans dum orbis exustio. Exsequor exequor!
ren, please stop being a martyr.
please understand how this looked to me, at least, as something of an onlooker until now. it's clear from your writing that you're very enthusiastic about TWA, not to mention ambitious. however, some of that ambition, as best as i and others were able to discern, potentially leads to direct conflict with the primary authority that could shut down myth's future with one signed cease and desist letter, an addressed envelope and a stamp - for good.
when people pointed this out, they were met by somewhat arrogant, self righteous, overconfident and less than one hundred per cent coherent ranting (i'm sorry, but that's how many of your long - and often doubled - posts read to me, especially on account of the cross-posting between threads) from yourself. before your personal reaction to this admittedly personal criticism takes over, please step back and consider it from someone else's perspective.
the lengths to which it sounded like you were intending to go seemed like they had no small chance of stopping myth development dead in its tracks - reckless. some of the ideas you were sounding off about showing your project running on a decade-old engine to companies like valve or bungie seemed unfounded (yes, many current games are still based on as old or older technology, but is so much rebuilt by people professionally paid to make it "new" that it far outstrips anything done to myth in the same time period). i don't really want to keep going; i just want you to understand how others, with different perspectives and levels of scepticism, see this whole saga as it's unfolded on the forum.
i, for one, am not a "hater", as you so generously seem to label me. i genuinely want to see TWA a success, though i sit with ooga in that i consider it unlikely to be much more than a myth near-total conversion - and a damn cool one, at that. hell, if i've got the time when testing is needed, i'll gladly volunteer.
i'm honestly sorry to see that your announcement didn't go as smoothly or as happily as you would have liked. however, i must point out that you cannot avoid responsibility for the way you, yourself, handled it when people started asking sceptical questions (as they should!). your enthusiasm is great, and nothing to be trodden on, in any way, shape or form, except when it fuels your personal opinion of your ambitions and hopes into a level of confidence and righteousness that is not necessarily well founded.
that is what i saw happen when it came to you justifying your plans to show off TWA as myth 4 as if it were realistically a commercially marketable product. this is not to say that it's beyond possibility, but your desires appear to have inflated your estimation of that chance. and maybe we're wrong and you will go somewhere with it. i wouldn't denounce you if you did; i'd eat my words of pessimism and congratulate you, as i'm sure others would, if you were successful.
but you cannot begrudge anyone the right to question your designs if you make them public, or to respond to that effect if you aren't fully or properly understood (as you weren't). many responses were hypothetical, to ideas about what you seemed to plan, if their understanding of you was correct (sometimes it wasn't; sometimes not through any fault of their own). so maybe you've learned to be more careful and clear about what you say and how you go about saying it. just please don't turn bitter: we don't need or want another clem.
we want (or at least i want) ren to be happy, productive and open. in spite of any reservations i hold about what i understand of your ambitions and plans for something greater than "just" a near-total conversion to expand the myth-world's storyline, i do honestly want to see you succeed and release a great product. all too many similar projects have fallen through, in the past, and as i said last night, for whatever reason, i believe that this has a chance of succeeding. whether through financial dedication, a better plan or organisational structure and communication (as ooga mentioned, you guys use the phone a lot - not something i've ever done in the context of my mapmaking endeavours (though international calls aren't exactly cheap, i'll say!)), or whatever, i have a sense you can succeed where others have failed.
i have every reason to want you guys to release a working product - but my desire for yout total success is tempered with caution, for the dangers that are already outlined, in favour of something just as good as i imagine it to be, albeit with a smaller (safer) impact.
this is no time for "gg"s yet. much more for "gl"!
please understand how this looked to me, at least, as something of an onlooker until now. it's clear from your writing that you're very enthusiastic about TWA, not to mention ambitious. however, some of that ambition, as best as i and others were able to discern, potentially leads to direct conflict with the primary authority that could shut down myth's future with one signed cease and desist letter, an addressed envelope and a stamp - for good.
when people pointed this out, they were met by somewhat arrogant, self righteous, overconfident and less than one hundred per cent coherent ranting (i'm sorry, but that's how many of your long - and often doubled - posts read to me, especially on account of the cross-posting between threads) from yourself. before your personal reaction to this admittedly personal criticism takes over, please step back and consider it from someone else's perspective.
the lengths to which it sounded like you were intending to go seemed like they had no small chance of stopping myth development dead in its tracks - reckless. some of the ideas you were sounding off about showing your project running on a decade-old engine to companies like valve or bungie seemed unfounded (yes, many current games are still based on as old or older technology, but is so much rebuilt by people professionally paid to make it "new" that it far outstrips anything done to myth in the same time period). i don't really want to keep going; i just want you to understand how others, with different perspectives and levels of scepticism, see this whole saga as it's unfolded on the forum.
i, for one, am not a "hater", as you so generously seem to label me. i genuinely want to see TWA a success, though i sit with ooga in that i consider it unlikely to be much more than a myth near-total conversion - and a damn cool one, at that. hell, if i've got the time when testing is needed, i'll gladly volunteer.
i'm honestly sorry to see that your announcement didn't go as smoothly or as happily as you would have liked. however, i must point out that you cannot avoid responsibility for the way you, yourself, handled it when people started asking sceptical questions (as they should!). your enthusiasm is great, and nothing to be trodden on, in any way, shape or form, except when it fuels your personal opinion of your ambitions and hopes into a level of confidence and righteousness that is not necessarily well founded.
that is what i saw happen when it came to you justifying your plans to show off TWA as myth 4 as if it were realistically a commercially marketable product. this is not to say that it's beyond possibility, but your desires appear to have inflated your estimation of that chance. and maybe we're wrong and you will go somewhere with it. i wouldn't denounce you if you did; i'd eat my words of pessimism and congratulate you, as i'm sure others would, if you were successful.
but you cannot begrudge anyone the right to question your designs if you make them public, or to respond to that effect if you aren't fully or properly understood (as you weren't). many responses were hypothetical, to ideas about what you seemed to plan, if their understanding of you was correct (sometimes it wasn't; sometimes not through any fault of their own). so maybe you've learned to be more careful and clear about what you say and how you go about saying it. just please don't turn bitter: we don't need or want another clem.
we want (or at least i want) ren to be happy, productive and open. in spite of any reservations i hold about what i understand of your ambitions and plans for something greater than "just" a near-total conversion to expand the myth-world's storyline, i do honestly want to see you succeed and release a great product. all too many similar projects have fallen through, in the past, and as i said last night, for whatever reason, i believe that this has a chance of succeeding. whether through financial dedication, a better plan or organisational structure and communication (as ooga mentioned, you guys use the phone a lot - not something i've ever done in the context of my mapmaking endeavours (though international calls aren't exactly cheap, i'll say!)), or whatever, i have a sense you can succeed where others have failed.
i have every reason to want you guys to release a working product - but my desire for yout total success is tempered with caution, for the dangers that are already outlined, in favour of something just as good as i imagine it to be, albeit with a smaller (safer) impact.
this is no time for "gg"s yet. much more for "gl"!
*toot*
Re: .
ooga, thanks for taking the time to answer some of the questions that have been tossed around.oogaBooga wrote:I hope that answers your questions, if you have any more, let me know.
-ooga
I may have already been branded a 'hater', but as I've said in just about every post on this topic, I am really looking forward to the TWA release, I love new campaigns and TWA sounds like it's as large in scope and grand in vision as one could hope for.
gl!
ps. I never knew that preferring the written word to spoken conversations meant that I was 'homophobic ' or 'childish'.
Lots of Myth stuff at http://mythgraveyard.org.
Sometimes I put hard to find stuff in my my Udogs folder.
Sometimes I put hard to find stuff in my my Udogs folder.
Well lank i think, and have for years that the next myth game MUST be built on myth's updated builds. It will help a lot to keep the feeling of "mythyness" we all so enjoy. As in if the next myth game wasnt built on bungie based technology it would be really easy to screw it up.
anything you have worried about with regards to what the name of this project is or isnt called are pretty unfounded. as i stated many times a lot of people make things for myth without permission since any that was granted expired years ago. should we all stop development for risk of what could happen? NO! none of us owns the franchise and thats sucks..but we all risk a tiny bit working on something owned by somebody other then ourselves.
-Ren
anything you have worried about with regards to what the name of this project is or isnt called are pretty unfounded. as i stated many times a lot of people make things for myth without permission since any that was granted expired years ago. should we all stop development for risk of what could happen? NO! none of us owns the franchise and thats sucks..but we all risk a tiny bit working on something owned by somebody other then ourselves.
-Ren
Persica purnus constans dum orbis exustio. Exsequor exequor!
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:) Da Cid (: McCl
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William Wallet
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in this, i think we're agreed. if there is a next (official) myth game, it would almost certainly have to be based on what was originally TFL code, or its "mythyness" would be very hard to retain. no worries here.Renwood wrote:Well lank i think, and have for years that the next myth game MUST be built on myth's updated builds. It will help a lot to keep the feeling of "mythyness" we all so enjoy. As in if the next myth game wasnt built on bungie based technology it would be really easy to screw it up.
but is that really so? i'm sceptical that permission to make plugins for myth using the tools provided (and updated) has expired, though i'm not very clear on the legality of it all, if there is indeed any clarity on that point of issue. at the very worst, permission, as such, hasn't been revoked, that i know of.anything you have worried about with regards to what the name of this project is or isnt called are pretty unfounded. as i stated many times a lot of people make things for myth without permission since any that was granted expired years ago.
the distinction, if permission to make plugins has expired, between that and calling a new project "myth 4" is very great. even in this decidedly unmagical place and age, names have power. specifically when it comes to the ownership of franchises (and their names) and unsanctioned competition using existing names in the same field.should we all stop development for risk of what could happen? NO!
in other words, there is no grounds for stopping development, but there may well be grounds for not calling something "myth 4" without permission, especially if it's distributed independently of the rest of myth 2 as you mentioned doing. this is the crux of the issue, and though with more information (such as that you will now likely be using just the 1.7 build of myth 2 and not a separate version, even if it's fully backwards compatible) much of the earlier argument is moot, the issue remains that calling your project, however ambitious in scope or design, "myth 4" without permission, could bring the sky crashing down on myth.
unlikely, imho, unless you can provide convincing evidence that permission to make plugins has indeed lapsed and we're all making myth stuff illegally and that it could get the community completely shut down.none of us owns the franchise and thats sucks..but we all risk a tiny bit working on something owned by somebody other then ourselves.
as i said, the difference between making something for myth and calling something new "myth" is fairly large.
but whatever! i'm not here to stop you from trying to make a myth 4 in total, but i do hope you go about getting sanction in a less potentially dangerous way than it initially sounded! and i do hope that in that way you succeed.
i'm downloading build 39 at present. hopefully i'll have time to try it by next weekend when exams are over...
*toot*