just say "will move on"... say it!! i said SAY IT!!!Krusader wrote:After Myth 2 1.5, ProjectMagma will likely move on to Myth 3 or TFL.
Sincerely,
Krusader
you can step away, and must! for the good of mankind!!!
Proposal to end all modification of myth
i did a little spot check on 1.5 being the same gameplay as 1.3 by testing the range of an arch on the same grass clump on gimb shooting at the same lil bit of the river in v1.3, 1.4.2 and 1.5. there are films at http://home.austin.rr.com/aoffice/rangeTest.zip
the result? 1.4 and 1.3 shoot the same distance, 1.5 shoots a smidge *shorter*. in walking forward to get in range, 1.5 seems smarter about walking only as far as needed. 1.3 just seems to take 2 steps - which can be more than needed.
soooo, 1.5 and 1.3 are *not* the same in this simple test. i think if i were to add moving targets there might be other differences - but i was doing this masturbation style (and we know how unsatisfying that is.)
the result? 1.4 and 1.3 shoot the same distance, 1.5 shoots a smidge *shorter*. in walking forward to get in range, 1.5 seems smarter about walking only as far as needed. 1.3 just seems to take 2 steps - which can be more than needed.
soooo, 1.5 and 1.3 are *not* the same in this simple test. i think if i were to add moving targets there might be other differences - but i was doing this masturbation style (and we know how unsatisfying that is.)
i can guarantee that no tag changes have been made in 1.5 (look in tag extractor or topaz if you like), so i honestly doubt there's a problem, or at least any change since the newest patch 1.4 plugin.
pus in patch 1.4 is not modified, so it's most likely the same.
the dwarf bottles are modified, but their detonation and promotion values have not been changed from 1.3, so... we all know this road.
if you want to test it, i'll be quite happy to tell you how to set up a test scenario. i might even set it up myself if you convince me it's worth doing. a requirement, though, for either of us to do it, is that the test setup be made available for public scrutiny, just to make sure it's correct and holds no bias.
let me know - pm me or reply to this, or see me on udoghl - and we can sort this out.
to be quite frank, though, i don't think any problem exists.
pus in patch 1.4 is not modified, so it's most likely the same.
the dwarf bottles are modified, but their detonation and promotion values have not been changed from 1.3, so... we all know this road.
if you want to test it, i'll be quite happy to tell you how to set up a test scenario. i might even set it up myself if you convince me it's worth doing. a requirement, though, for either of us to do it, is that the test setup be made available for public scrutiny, just to make sure it's correct and holds no bias.
let me know - pm me or reply to this, or see me on udoghl - and we can sort this out.
to be quite frank, though, i don't think any problem exists.
*toot*
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iron
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2006
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igmo ... with respect I do think you're making some wrong assumptions with those readme items.
2.2.a is a reversal of a 1.4 feature to 1.3, plain and simple. Its taking away "intelligence" from units - they can no longer select other targets on their own when told to attack something by a player. There are exceptions to this, most notably being when your unit runs into another enemy of the same type or the target dies, but these were in 1.3.
2.2.c - I've responded to your other post about this, but this means that your movement orders will not be ignored by attacking units, as could sometimes happen in 1.3 and 1.4.
2.2.f is indeed a slight change, and relates to how melee units auto-select targets after their original target dies. All the feedback we've had concerning it is positive as it "feels" more natural and predictable (the difference is very subtle), however if you find a bug relating to it in actual gameplay then by all means let us know.
Thanks for the film link above, I'll be analysing them in depth later today & will get back to you on what I find. What perturbs me is the increasingly widespread assumption of a high level of bugginess without providing a lot of evidence to support it, and fanned by people who've not even downloaded the patch. Its not doing anyone any good.
Finally, 1.5 _will_ be the final patch for Myth 2, barring the need to update caused by platform compatibilities that Microsoft or Apple may foist on us. And we _will_ be moving on to something else after this.
2.2.a is a reversal of a 1.4 feature to 1.3, plain and simple. Its taking away "intelligence" from units - they can no longer select other targets on their own when told to attack something by a player. There are exceptions to this, most notably being when your unit runs into another enemy of the same type or the target dies, but these were in 1.3.
2.2.c - I've responded to your other post about this, but this means that your movement orders will not be ignored by attacking units, as could sometimes happen in 1.3 and 1.4.
2.2.f is indeed a slight change, and relates to how melee units auto-select targets after their original target dies. All the feedback we've had concerning it is positive as it "feels" more natural and predictable (the difference is very subtle), however if you find a bug relating to it in actual gameplay then by all means let us know.
Thanks for the film link above, I'll be analysing them in depth later today & will get back to you on what I find. What perturbs me is the increasingly widespread assumption of a high level of bugginess without providing a lot of evidence to support it, and fanned by people who've not even downloaded the patch. Its not doing anyone any good.
Finally, 1.5 _will_ be the final patch for Myth 2, barring the need to update caused by platform compatibilities that Microsoft or Apple may foist on us. And we _will_ be moving on to something else after this.
hazzah for the "will"s!iron wrote:Finally, 1.5 _will_ be the final patch for Myth 2, barring the need to update caused by platform compatibilities that Microsoft or Apple may foist on us. And we _will_ be moving on to something else after this.
i follow you on the 2.2.a and 2.2.c issues - and conceed that they are not changes. i can also agree that 2.2.f sounds like a good idea, but am willing to take a hard line and say no such changes should be made. any tinkering is a slippery slope.
gotta say, the more im in this discussion, the less appealing the 1.4.x versions seem. all those lil things tweaked.
is your code commentary clean enough that you are sure you have recreated 1.3 gameplay?
i should also note that making the films of the same archer event in 1.3, 1.4.2 and 1.5b1 makes 1.3 seem like a nighmare for rendering with my current vidcard and xp. not sure if that was due to some artifact of the patching... i took the 1.4 and 1.5 patches out of the plugin folder while testing.
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iron
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2006
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:21 am
- Location: diving out of the Sun at 10 o'clock high!
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yes, 1.3 rendering is lag city.
Our code is pretty clean, and does have 1.3 gameplay support - you can play a 1.3 film using 1.5 after all
There are two 1.3 films I have here that go OOS though, and I've been unable to find why, but I have at least 30 other films (some even 1.2 films) that work just fine, including classics like the Desert one where Apollo's duff dies & a lit bottle sits and fizzles on the ground for the rest of the game.
Our code is pretty clean, and does have 1.3 gameplay support - you can play a 1.3 film using 1.5 after all
There are two 1.3 films I have here that go OOS though, and I've been unable to find why, but I have at least 30 other films (some even 1.2 films) that work just fine, including classics like the Desert one where Apollo's duff dies & a lit bottle sits and fizzles on the ground for the rest of the game.
I question all the people complaining that 1.5 Beta 1 is ruining gameplay and has so many bugs and all this.......have you all forgotten the 1.4 fiasco? I thought it completely gibbered the melee and gameplay style. We all adapted to this though. 1.4 as a FINAL release had more bugs remaining in it than the 1.5 BETA ONE has...and it's a beta for gods sakes. Quite honestly I think the admins of this forum should temporariily hide this thread until 1.5 is released as a final version.....then see how many replies it gets....there wont be much to complain about at that point, so I doubt it would be too popular....again, just some insight from a n00b mapmaker 
Oh yea, on a sidenote....Dont know how you can say Magma guys dont play on PMnet.....I see Myrd on there more often than I am on...as in....whenever I'm there he's there before me, in a game, testing right alongside the members of the communityâ„¢. He goes by Shadow Knight on PMnet and is usually dressed in black. If you played the game maybe you'd see him too :O
Edited By Graydon on 1082699705
Oh yea, on a sidenote....Dont know how you can say Magma guys dont play on PMnet.....I see Myrd on there more often than I am on...as in....whenever I'm there he's there before me, in a game, testing right alongside the members of the communityâ„¢. He goes by Shadow Knight on PMnet and is usually dressed in black. If you played the game maybe you'd see him too :O
Edited By Graydon on 1082699705
Here’s my two cents because I was late to the party and apparently some of this stuff can’t be said enough.
It’s not hard to understand why there are some misconceptions. Unfortunately, it started out with certain parties on both sides of the “1.3 vs 1.4 or 1.5†debate stirring things up a bit and maybe giving the wrong impression. Sadly, some of what’s being said, such as 1.5 being a “back-port to TFL†isn’t just wrong, it’s meant to be intentionally misleading so as to spite Project Magma in any way possible. Please take the words of someone who took the trouble to contact our former web host to accuse us of being a “hate-site†and “offering illegal downloads†with a grain of salt.
So here are the facts:
The big “changes†to game-play are meant to fix non-intuitive unit behavior. This may sound bad and scary, but we’re talking about things like the archer walk bug, melee that mills around while getting killed instead of attacking back, and similar issues of units just not doing what you click them to do. While the argument for “Myth was already great†is a valid one, the next time you have to have to tell your units to do what want ten times before they actually do it, be in it 1.3, 1.4 or 1.5 beta, ask yourself if you honestly think that’s what made Myth great.
As far as game-play, 1.5 should be closer to 1.3 than 1.4 is to 1.3. Plain and simple, we learned our lesson. We want to keep the Myth community happy and not have a lot of needless controversy.
Some people have found differences in the 1.5 BETA and a couple of them started to make the assumption that they’re intentional game-play changes. They’re not - they’re bugs. Most of these bugs have already been eradicated, and Magma’s programmers are still working very hard to fix the rest. And as has been said countless times, if you find such bugs, please help by saving the film and sending it so it can be analyzed and the bug fixed. There’s no need to waste your time getting bent out of shape by it; NO ONE WANTS these bugs.
Igmo makes a very logical assumption:
“what bothers me about the bugs i posted is that they did not happen in 1.3 or 1.4.x - so something about the continued revision of the application is making all new bugs. this implies to me (though i understand that i may be wrong) that NEW things are being changed, rather than focus specifically on those bugs that are known.â€
The vast majority of these bugs are all related. For instance, the archer walk bug, the CK/CL bug left over from TFL, and some of the 1.4 bugs are ALL one and the same. Yeah, Bungie fixed the CK/CL bug, but as a purely direct result, they created the archer walk bug. I’m not a programmer, but I know this problem has been a bitch to fix without hundreds of tests to find the side effects. Had Iron known in advance how many days of work he’d have to devote to this, I bet he’d never have bothered. As it is now, I doubt anyone wouldn’t like to see this problem wiped out once and for all.
The only thing TFL has to do with Myth II 1.5 is only within vTFL. TFL code was used to make vTFL more pure and accurate, but it doesn’t affect standard Myth in anyway.
Clem is right, there's a vast number of changes in 1.5, but like vTFL, they are completely isolated from regular Myth or any past or current plugins. These changes are only for mapmakers to take advantage of for future plugins. Like vTFL, these changes are well isolated and almost never bleed over into regular Myth to cause a bug. In fact, as far as I know, not one of these changes has ever caused a bug in regular Myth. If there was such a bug, I’m sure Blades and Clem would have exploded in perpetual multiple orgasms by now.
Blades would also like everyone to believe (or he's just wishfully thinking) that Project Magma is the reason that less and less people play Myth over time. Eh… I won’t bother. I think everyone here is smart enough to figure out why any 6-year old computer game eventually gets less and less steady players. I will say however, that for myself, and a many of my friends, the only reason we’re still playing since 1998 is because of the promise of new and exciting things.
If it weren't for 1.4 and 1.5, the Myth community would automatically be a little bit smaller than it is now. More importantly, it'd be smaller by the people who care enough and know how to do things like updates to OSX and XP, or even just make cool new maps. And trust me, the trickle down effect from that would eventually shrink the ranks of even the most die hard rank players and Myth "purists".
So, that all said, we hope the entire community will enjoy 1.5 when it’s done and not have any technical problems with it. There’s no hidden agenda. The reason for making 1.5 is to make the Myth community happy by making the game more enjoyable – not just for us, not just for mapmakers, but for everyone.
P.S.
Clem, I’d never say this to anyone but you, and only because I’ve seen you say it yourself so many times in the past that your hypocrisy is astounding:
If you don’t like how we’re doing things, do it better yourself.
Blades, just so your "poor lil' ol' innocent me" act and claims of not trying to cause trouble don't sound like such an outrageous farce, I think you should pay us the $700 a year you're costing us as a direct result of your past shameful lies and spite.
It’s not hard to understand why there are some misconceptions. Unfortunately, it started out with certain parties on both sides of the “1.3 vs 1.4 or 1.5†debate stirring things up a bit and maybe giving the wrong impression. Sadly, some of what’s being said, such as 1.5 being a “back-port to TFL†isn’t just wrong, it’s meant to be intentionally misleading so as to spite Project Magma in any way possible. Please take the words of someone who took the trouble to contact our former web host to accuse us of being a “hate-site†and “offering illegal downloads†with a grain of salt.
So here are the facts:
The big “changes†to game-play are meant to fix non-intuitive unit behavior. This may sound bad and scary, but we’re talking about things like the archer walk bug, melee that mills around while getting killed instead of attacking back, and similar issues of units just not doing what you click them to do. While the argument for “Myth was already great†is a valid one, the next time you have to have to tell your units to do what want ten times before they actually do it, be in it 1.3, 1.4 or 1.5 beta, ask yourself if you honestly think that’s what made Myth great.
As far as game-play, 1.5 should be closer to 1.3 than 1.4 is to 1.3. Plain and simple, we learned our lesson. We want to keep the Myth community happy and not have a lot of needless controversy.
Some people have found differences in the 1.5 BETA and a couple of them started to make the assumption that they’re intentional game-play changes. They’re not - they’re bugs. Most of these bugs have already been eradicated, and Magma’s programmers are still working very hard to fix the rest. And as has been said countless times, if you find such bugs, please help by saving the film and sending it so it can be analyzed and the bug fixed. There’s no need to waste your time getting bent out of shape by it; NO ONE WANTS these bugs.
Igmo makes a very logical assumption:
“what bothers me about the bugs i posted is that they did not happen in 1.3 or 1.4.x - so something about the continued revision of the application is making all new bugs. this implies to me (though i understand that i may be wrong) that NEW things are being changed, rather than focus specifically on those bugs that are known.â€
The vast majority of these bugs are all related. For instance, the archer walk bug, the CK/CL bug left over from TFL, and some of the 1.4 bugs are ALL one and the same. Yeah, Bungie fixed the CK/CL bug, but as a purely direct result, they created the archer walk bug. I’m not a programmer, but I know this problem has been a bitch to fix without hundreds of tests to find the side effects. Had Iron known in advance how many days of work he’d have to devote to this, I bet he’d never have bothered. As it is now, I doubt anyone wouldn’t like to see this problem wiped out once and for all.
The only thing TFL has to do with Myth II 1.5 is only within vTFL. TFL code was used to make vTFL more pure and accurate, but it doesn’t affect standard Myth in anyway.
Clem is right, there's a vast number of changes in 1.5, but like vTFL, they are completely isolated from regular Myth or any past or current plugins. These changes are only for mapmakers to take advantage of for future plugins. Like vTFL, these changes are well isolated and almost never bleed over into regular Myth to cause a bug. In fact, as far as I know, not one of these changes has ever caused a bug in regular Myth. If there was such a bug, I’m sure Blades and Clem would have exploded in perpetual multiple orgasms by now.
Blades would also like everyone to believe (or he's just wishfully thinking) that Project Magma is the reason that less and less people play Myth over time. Eh… I won’t bother. I think everyone here is smart enough to figure out why any 6-year old computer game eventually gets less and less steady players. I will say however, that for myself, and a many of my friends, the only reason we’re still playing since 1998 is because of the promise of new and exciting things.
If it weren't for 1.4 and 1.5, the Myth community would automatically be a little bit smaller than it is now. More importantly, it'd be smaller by the people who care enough and know how to do things like updates to OSX and XP, or even just make cool new maps. And trust me, the trickle down effect from that would eventually shrink the ranks of even the most die hard rank players and Myth "purists".
So, that all said, we hope the entire community will enjoy 1.5 when it’s done and not have any technical problems with it. There’s no hidden agenda. The reason for making 1.5 is to make the Myth community happy by making the game more enjoyable – not just for us, not just for mapmakers, but for everyone.
P.S.
Clem, I’d never say this to anyone but you, and only because I’ve seen you say it yourself so many times in the past that your hypocrisy is astounding:
If you don’t like how we’re doing things, do it better yourself.
Blades, just so your "poor lil' ol' innocent me" act and claims of not trying to cause trouble don't sound like such an outrageous farce, I think you should pay us the $700 a year you're costing us as a direct result of your past shameful lies and spite.
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Miguel Chavez
Hello everyone!
I have been away for a while from the game, I last played 1.4.4 and it had huge problems with my computer (camera still moving 3 secs after i stopped pressing the keey, the keyboard input was so bad, i couldnt chat ingame etc...), so I waited for 1.5 to come out, and it's all been fixed.
I've never been a big face in myth, though I have played it since it came out, online, LAN or solo and I am not one to claim e733t sk337z, but I have enjoyed the game for many years and I am greatful that you guys do good work.
So keep it up, heads up and make time in the coding to come and play some time, coz we all know that there is no greater pleasure than spilling the guts of the people who work on the game! :p
Cheers!
Azhure
I have been away for a while from the game, I last played 1.4.4 and it had huge problems with my computer (camera still moving 3 secs after i stopped pressing the keey, the keyboard input was so bad, i couldnt chat ingame etc...), so I waited for 1.5 to come out, and it's all been fixed.
I've never been a big face in myth, though I have played it since it came out, online, LAN or solo and I am not one to claim e733t sk337z, but I have enjoyed the game for many years and I am greatful that you guys do good work.
So keep it up, heads up and make time in the coding to come and play some time, coz we all know that there is no greater pleasure than spilling the guts of the people who work on the game! :p
Cheers!
Azhure
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Spond!Max
So Iron ... would that "something else" you're moving on to be MIII mapmaking tools? That would be pretty darn cool IMO. I played build 122 last night (I think ... whatever one is the latest), and it's never run smoother on my machine, although I happen to have one of those machines that never seems to have any problems running anything.
G4 1.25ghz single
1.25GB RAM
128MB 4ti AGP
OS X 10.2.8
G4 1.25ghz single
1.25GB RAM
128MB 4ti AGP
OS X 10.2.8