Mazz VI: Wisdom of the Mancers

[gvari]

I see, thanks Ducky.
I've seen that, for example when stoned trow from trow train are left alive on purpose.
I'm guessing the four unit challeneg would be hell of a lot more difficult without this

[Archer]

I should mention again that if there's any desire to get another pair of hands familiar with the Myth codebase for future improvements, I'd love to be able to give back to the community.

(Also, thanks for everyone who gave advice; I want to add something else I learned recently, which is that it can be useful for the Mancers to get to about 60-odd kills and then just revert to only killing stuff that needs to die until the other units get fairly well into level 2. No other leveling unit is as good at catching back up from a kill deficit as the mancers.)

~J

[Deqlyn]

Who mad egodzfire official Ele of the"Mazz Dreamteam" he just whores it and doesnt let dwarves vet even after hes level 3 max. *laughs*

[ChrisP]

This means that sometimes when you get to the watcher, you've already killed all of the boss waves and even all of the wraith waves. Haven't heard it from CP but I bet the "exploit" is whatever causes that to happen, and goodness knows what that is.

I’ve always said you were smarter than the average water fowl.

I began typing a long, detailed technical explanation for this phenomenon, but upon proofing it, I realized it made me sound like the ultimate nerd. So I deleted it.

Here’s a related tidbit though. Theoretically, it should be possible for the Watcher to appear very early into the game, long before the majority of waves have spawned – under the hour mark, for sure, and maybe even as early as 30 minutes in. Beat the map in less than an hour and I’ll be truly impressed.

As for the thrall reanimation trick being used on only a few units, that’s a subtlety that’d be lost in a game that relies solely on brute massive assault. Even if players noticed it happening, it’d have no real impact on gameplay.

And no, there will be no dwarven zepplins either. In fact, the unit changes are so minor that I doubt they’ll be noticed. Slight balance tweaks and nothing more. The focus will be on the script, and if all goes well, the effects will be very dramatic.

But I have to be honest here; I’ve yet to start, am not sure how long it will take to relearn how to script, not sure if Myrd will be inclined to give me a new custom Loathing, am very busy with projects at my job and projects around the house, and have no desire to scale back my limited free time with either my family or friends on WoW. On the other hand, I wouldn’t have posted all this if I didn’t really want to do it. Realistically, late July will be the soonest I can get a beta ready, and I promise nothing.

[Jon God]

Just for kicks, I made a map with thrall that, when killed, fall to pieces, and each piece spawns another thrall, of which the same rules apply. However, each successive thrall drops 1 less body part, is weaker, and looks slightly different via collection references.

It works, and I'm sure with a slight bit of tweaking, it could be made into something truly amazing, only thing to worry about, is that 3 starting thrall end up at around 700 or something nutz.

[Archer]

This means that sometimes when you get to the watcher, you've already killed all of the boss waves and even all of the wraith waves. Haven't heard it from CP but I bet the "exploit" is whatever causes that to happen, and goodness knows what that is.

I’ve always said you were smarter than the average water fowl.

I began typing a long, detailed technical explanation for this phenomenon, but upon proofing it, I realized it made me sound like the ultimate nerd. So I deleted it.

You sure you won't reconsider?

~J

[hmp]

Here’s a related tidbit though. Theoretically, it should be possible for the Watcher to appear very early into the game, long before the majority of waves have spawned – under the hour mark, for sure, and maybe even as early as 30 minutes in. Beat the map in less than an hour and I’ll be truly impressed.

Heh now I kind of want to try a speed win.
The fastest I'v seen black thrall appear is at 1:40 or so, and in a 4 man game they have most often not appeared until around 2:30-2:50. I think in general its just because things are killed slower and in particular the wights and enemy arty. Possibly the biggest thing is that in a 4 man game locks stay around for a lonnnng time. They fire from outside the morts range, and they are essentially harmless to such a small group (they do far more to help us.) So they are often out of range or even view, and they are at the very bottom of our target list.

I don't really remember all of the fast games that well, but I think most have been relatively high percent games where there are vetted arcs that are killing things as soon as they come into view along with the mancers/mort/rang.

Anyways if you do make a v3, my thoughts are:
-Much harder Watcher: currently he mostly just hacks away at mazz until hes nearly stoned, then for a few minutes he can become dangerous when he starts ignoring mazz. His hellfire from above usually only kills people who aren't watching their units. Hellfire from his hands is quite deadly, but only at a certain range, too close and we wont use it, too far and it wont hit a unit directly enough to kill it. The red pop can be bad if you are getting overrun with thrall, but often its used when it has no chance of spreading to do much damage. And if it does, ele, mazz, or pal can usually kill it pretty quick. Converting a unit is the most deadly since it cant really fail. I think only in one or two cases ever have I seen the converted unit become a danger to the team though. They usually just sit there even if the team doesn't immediately kill them. Cursing mazz/pal/fg is bad, but usually not a game changer, and it doesn't happen that often. Hell thrall just means a few more units to kill. They are pretty tough... but they are still thrall.

-fix the demo bug: demos would be awesome if they would stay vetted.

-get rid of the speed and defense crystals that mazz can pick up. They are just annoying because you have to just sit there and waste the extra one, and then your inv order becomes messed up (1.8 idea - some way of re-ordering your inventory!) Mazz starts with more than enough to last the game imo.

-Just harder in general, particularly the end game. Perhaps have the last boss waves tied to the black thrall wave instead of having them come at set times.


Oh, and about the mancer stuff... heres an advanced move:

your whole firewall concentrated in a single point. A little tricky to pull off and I haven't worked out all the uses yet.

[ChrisP]

Okay, nevermind what I said about not having a beta ready before July. Much remains, but the ball is definetly rolling now.

So how do I go about reviving my Mnet account? I didn’t forget my password - Mnet did! And what’s the deal with Omnipatch, is there a new version or something?

HMP, great post - points taken. How’s your availabilty late nights around 11:30PM Eastern, no weekends, starting… this Monday, mb? Pyro, Ducky, Archer, Godz, Gleep, DA, Myrd? It’ll be fun getting some of the old gang together.

[Archer]

So in the interests of public knowledge, I just wanted to let people know that both in a game that we won earlier today and in the recent SLeg 4man film, a warlock dies immediately before (no gap) the Black Thrall music starts.

I'd still love to hear that technical explanation, but I think we at least know the final trigger now.

Late nights are tough for me, but I can take one for the team now and then, and Thursdays I can probably do.

(Also, from watching the films, I notice you do some deeply strange things with mana on the enemy units; if you've got time sometime, I'd love to hear an explanation of how you set things up under the hood.)

~J, who just burned four hours watching Mazz VI films

[GodzFire]

Okay, nevermind what I said about not having a beta ready before July. Much remains, but the ball is definetly rolling now.

So how do I go about reviving my Mnet account? I didn’t forget my password - Mnet did!

Contact one of the mods on Mariusnet.com: plataypus, MNA_Om, or grim.

You can also go to the following page to get a temp password so you can change it; you need to remember your login or e-mail at least:
http://www.mariusnet.com/ubbthreads.php ... n&lostpw=1

And what’s the deal with Omnipatch, is there a new version or something?

Myrd just released a ported version of Omnipatch for Windows. Now you can use it on your *shudders* VISTA computer.....

How’s your availability late nights around 11:30PM Eastern, no weekends, starting… this Monday, mb?

How about starting tonight? Seriously though, if 11:30 East is 10:30 Central, which I think it is, I'm fine. It might be beneficial to do a few games of the current version, v2, just to see if there's anything you remember you wanted to change that's been forgotten.

Pyro, Ducky, Archer, Godz, Gleep, DA, Myrd? It’ll be fun getting some of the old gang together.

Come now Chris, if we're talking 'old gang', let's not forget *digs out his Mazz Dream Team list proudly*,

- Acme
- CRC
- Gamer
- Grigand
- Jagman
- PowerUp
- Propagandhi
- ScrapJack
- SnakeSkin
- Timmah
- WinterMute
- Wismuth
- Woof

Seriously though Chris, if you can get Jagman and ScrapJack to come back and play, I will seriously scream like a school girl in joy. That would be AWESOME. Just talking in Vent again would be worth it. I'm seriously excited!!!

[Myrd]

And what’s the deal with Omnipatch, is there a new version or something?

Myrd just released a ported version of Omnipatch for Windows. Now you can use it on your *shudders* VISTA computer.....

No I didn't. That one is still beta and has some interface glitches.

Though the patch format is compatible, so you can use whatever omnipatch version you want.

[GodzFire]

By the way, here is a list of "Next-Gen" Mazz Masters:

- 25 Years Of Mac
- Gholiath
- HMPy
- Mike
- Spa
- Sillek
- Zoso

(apologies if I missed anyone, but these are the main guys)

[iron]

Though the patch format is compatible, so you can use whatever omnipatch version you want.

I can't believe how solid that algorithm is. No changes in 6+ years, even though it was designed on the back of an envelope and coded in a couple of days...

[GodzFire]

Hey Iron, we miss you

[Pyro]

Contact one of the mods on Mariusnet.com: plataypus, MNA_Om, or grim.

Plataypus is better known as PrplPplEtr or some variation of that. MNA_Om might also be able to help. As for grim... he is not an Mnet mod, I don't know what godzfire is smoking. Grim is a MWC mod, not Mnet.