tain.totalcodex.net

toecutter wrote:...It is necessary to try and break through to their sensibilities, as NONE of anyone's concerns or questions were addressed in the groundbreaking video that they hyped almost more than their initial post.

No, it's not "necessary" your condescending sarcasm has been no more effective than calm rational posts in getting the team to address the questions that have been raised about their project - so since it didn't accomplish anything explain to me exactly how and why it was 'necessary'. Cluephone: It wasn't, that's just your self-rationalization for acting like a jerk.

toecutter wrote:I don't think the truth is really bullying, you imply I am somehow threatening them.
That is absurd. Even for you.

"Bully" might have been not the best word, but you can speak truth without badgering, belittling and insulting people - that much even you can admit. You chose the low road and personal attacks, that was my point.

toecutter wrote:You thought that second video would make me stop and let them off the hook?

I wrote my initial comment to you in reaction to what YOU wrote, I hadn't even watched the video - so I had no expectations of what your response to the video would be - the video itself had nothing to do with my initial criticism of your comments.

toecutter wrote: I think it is worse for everyone to white knight them now after realizing how painfully deluded the entire bid is and pretend they never felt their intelligence was insulted by the initial smug request for half a million dollars.

First, I don't think you know what the phrase 'white knight' means, secondly, I never felt like my intelligence was insulted by their initial video request, but maybe that's because I am fairly comfortable and secure in my intelligence (not claiming to be a genius, i just know what i know and i know what i don't and am ok with that). IF you felt insulted or thought their request was 'smug' those are your own issues - you can't blame other people for your own insecurities and issues.

That said, I didn't get any of the information I'd need to have before I'd be willing to invest in such an ambitious project, and I found the team's reluctance to share any information and complete lack of transparency incredibly frustrating to say the least. I could make a lot of assumptions about the reasons for the lack of information and transparency, some of which I've raised as possible reasons here in this discussion - but I still think there's a significant difference between raising questions/critically examining the project (lack of) plan AND mocking the individuals in the project. If you are trying to maintain your 'title' as most cynical myther I am sure you don't care about the difference one way or the other, so you don't need to reply, I get the point.

See, this kind of vague pitch just results in a lot of conjecture, which further makes them feel like we 'doubt' them or don't 'trust' them. It's all very frustrating to watch.

Here's my summary of the whole situation:

Team: "We've been customizing bicycles in our garages for the past 10 years. Now you should give us a lot of money so we can design and manufacture a motorcycle that we will call the 21st century Harley Davidson."

Others: "It takes a lot more skills and it's a lot more complicated to design and manufacture a motorcycle than it does to customize a bicycle, how exactly are you going to go about designing and manufacturing an automobile? What about the legal issues of calling your motorcycle Harley Davidson?"

Team: "Look at these bikes we've customized, they have hand-painted trim, custom rims, handwoven baskets, banana seats, you can see we have the skills, of COURSE we have a plan and know what we are doing, trust us, it will be a great motorcycle"

Others: "uh...no thanks"

If only we could be as bona fide as Bungie was. Then we could spend a million dollars and print 100,000 copies of myth 2 a game that will erase hard drives, recall them all, go bankrupt, then get bought by microsoft. Make billions off a console title by leaving PC and Mac bungie fans in the DUST. Then when we have more money then GOD, only THEN will we CANCEL bungie.net so people can not even play myth online anymore. Thus giving a big middle finger to all no Halo bungie fans. Then and Only then, will we be qualified to create the next myth title.


I have watched around 200 KS videos over the last few months, and not 1 time have I seen people share their budget. I also never want that information from the project creators. How a company makes things happen to produce a product internally is the purview of the business and them alone.

I should ask bungie to tell me everything about their inside deal with activision and what their budget is. I wonder how far that would get me....

People thinking the have the right to know about absolutely everything going on behind the scenes....Try that with any company of your choice. See how far it gets you.

You guys ARE aware there is NO chance of pleasing everybody.

VR

It would be more like we made RAD BMX bikes that everybody agrees are sweet and world class. Then we decided to make Mountain bikes. Since we allready use all the same tools on mountain bikes and BMX bikes. People would have faith that we could transition well into the new endeavour based on our past productions.

And another thing! hehe

We do not intend to infer that we coded anything to make the epic view distance in the myth engine. What I can say I DID DO was, when I paid Myrd to add some features to the myth engine long ago. One of the things I got myrd to do was increase the view distance/max rendering distance that the myth engine could do. Myrd did increase it, but not to the extent that it is now. It helped prove we did not know what the max distance the myth engine could render actually was. We are showing what MYTH CAN CURRENTLY DO. Showing what we have to work with, and proof of concept of large scale stuff IN THE ENGINE.

The tools we have to work with, and the larger scope the game can be played in a new myth game.
Still focused on small scale tactical combat 90% of the time. 10% Small squads within the larger scope of giant battles. Trying to affect the outcome of the battle with a fraction of the forces. Multiplayer remains mostly untouched in scale... Seems mythy to me.

Keep an open mind about our project. Its not like the myth community would all ever agree or all support whoever it is that tried to make a new myth. ONLY Bungie would make everybody happy if they made myth again. Thats kinda the point. In the end, our main goal is to bring myth back to bungie and work FOR them and WITH them making it.

Vindicator wrote:Keep an open mind about our project. Its not like the myth community would all ever agree or all support whoever it is that tried to make a new myth. ONLY Bungie would make everybody happy if they made myth again. Thats kinda the point. In the end, our main goal is to bring myth back to bungie and work FOR them and WITH them making it.

I don't think if bungie themselves were making another title would please us, much or the original employees who worked on myth have since moved onto other companies or whatever.

Only thing would be to have bungie.net come back but everyone would be playing this title since no one wants to go through the process of installing 1.8, getting mnet account, getting handful of plugins, learning the ways myth has changed etc.

So it would mean the death of Myth II if everyone switched over or people here would just stay here and nothing would be changed, cept theres a Myth 4.

Vindicator wrote:And another thing! hehe

We do not intend to infer that we coded anything to make the epic view distance in the myth engine. What I can say I DID DO was, when I paid Myrd to add some features to the myth engine long ago. One of the things I got myrd to do was increase the view distance/max rendering distance that the myth engine could do. Myrd did increase it, but not to the extent that it is now. It helped prove we did not know what the max distance the myth engine could render actually was. We are showing what MYTH CAN CURRENTLY DO. Showing what we have to work with, and proof of concept of large scale stuff IN THE ENGINE.

The tools we have to work with, and the larger scope the game can be played in a new myth game.
Still focused on small scale tactical combat 90% of the time. 10% Small squads within the larger scope of giant battles. Trying to affect the outcome of the battle with a fraction of the forces. Multiplayer remains mostly untouched in scale... Seems mythy to me.

Maxing the engines limits is not a really good idea.

Also armies in Myth is not really mythy and so is the ability to zoom out wouldn't help really because of fog of war and would just confuse the player also make things a lil difficult if caught in a quick encounter.


The video shows armies of myth units fighting each other which brings me to another concern about how you want to increase max units onscreen, Why?

when theres 400+ units onscreen at once thats not myth, you start leaning toward the Mazz feel, especially when you throw in warlocks that have super range and a fire attack thats instant kill, and still have mana leftover for the electric special.

Guess you are secretly making Mazz 7 to coincide with your project.

Vindicator wrote:VR

It would be more like we made RAD BMX bikes that everybody agrees are sweet and world class. Then we decided to make Mountain bikes. Since we allready use all the same tools on mountain bikes and BMX bikes. People would have faith that we could transition well into the new endeavour based on our past productions.

You're going to make Myth IV with Fear, Loathing and Amber? Or Hammer?

Is this a new game or a plugin? Make up your fucking mind.

Vindicator wrote:In the end, our main goal is to bring myth back to bungie and work FOR them and WITH them making it.

I'm sure this all seems very coherent and sane for you, but why the fuck are you talking about working with Bungie now? What the hell do they even have to do with this?

Is the unannounced "Destiny" actually Myth IV?

Vindicator wrote:It would be more like we made RAD BMX bikes that everybody agrees are sweet and world class. Then we decided to make Mountain bikes. Since we allready use all the same tools on mountain bikes and BMX bikes. People would have faith that we could transition well into the new endeavour based on our past productions.

Putting aside the obvious flaw that everyone doesn't agree your products are 'sweet and world class', ALL I have seen your team create is UNITS and effects. I am NOT diminishing the level of effort and skill required to create these things, but you are talking about a whole GAME - which is WAY more than just units and effects. You are talking artwork, music, level design, maps, coherent story/campaign creation, scripting 20+ levels, extensive coding modifications to 10+ year old game server code, game features that are undefined being made by some unknown coder(s). THAT is not the same thing as making units or particle physics/sprites - it's a basket of apples to an entire orchard.

A more accurate analogy in the mountain bike theme would be 'We've been modding mountain bikes by adding custom suspensions and paint jobs, now give us some money so we can design and hire people to manufacture an original bike.

If you don't get the difference or why people are having a hard time making the leap of faith from your past record to just trusting you can manage this project that is 100x more involved and difficult than anything you've ever done in the past then you really don't have a very firm grasp of reality. This isn't a personal dig, this is basic logic - YOU are advertising yourself as the project manager, yet the only thing I am aware of that you've managed is the TWindA project which was delayed more than once, and when you finally released something from the project it had maybe 25% of what your had been promising(Final Unit Tagset) - So as far as I know, YOUR ONLY EXPERIENCE MANAGING A PROJECT WAS FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS NEVER COMPLETED. That's not a record that inspires confidence.
You can spin it and say the final tagset was your intended goal, but the record of what you promised the TWIndA project would be is really different that what you actually finished - and now you want half a million dollars to finish this project you've already been working on for what 5+ years? I think that's what a lot of people have a problem with - a lack of confidence that nothing you've released has helped to mitigate.

IF you want people to trust you can deliver on this project you need to make a better argument than "we love myth, we make cool mods, and we need money to pay our bills".

Vindicator wrote:In the end, our main goal is to bring myth back to bungie and work FOR them and WITH them making it.

Ok, reality check time.

1. If Bungie wanted to release a new Myth game, they are in a much better position than you to buy the rights back any time they want. Even if you were planning on paying $100K for the rights (which I doubt) Bungie could pay 4x that and not even blink.

2. But more importantly, you say your MAIN goal is to bring Myth back to Bungie and work FOR them and WITH them and yet this is the FIRST time this has been mentioned at all? So your kickstarter project isn't really what you say it is, you aren't really trying to create your a new Myth game on your own, you are trying to con people into investing in your project so you can get enough money to buy rights to Myth and use that to barter your way into Bungie and get THEM to release a new Myth game, that you guys would (I assume you think) be in charge of? So your goal is NOT to (as ooga claimed at the beginning of this topic) to let the Myth community be the sole caretakers of the code? Or were you planning on hiring some outside party to make your game mods then dumping support for your game mods on the magma devs?

Seriously Ren, WTH are you talking about? Do you guys even know/agree on what this project is?

Vindicator wrote:We do not intend to infer that we coded anything to make the epic view distance in the myth engine. We are showing what MYTH CAN CURRENTLY DO. Showing what we have to work with, and proof of concept of large scale stuff IN THE ENGINE.

By not stating you didnt code them and showing them off as features to your new myth it somewhat infers that you did. Especially to someone who doesnt know you didnt like many of the people that are backing this project.

Surely the current myth engine can do a lot of things that Myth 1.3 could not. They were added for free by people on their spare time. I hope you don't expect 1.8 to be your starting point because thats just not going to happen. You must come to terms with the fact that 1.3 is your starting point. That means Myth wont run on OSX. Myth wont run on linux. Myth can't do many of things it can do today. For you to assume you could just take the work done from 1.4 - 1.8 is absurd to say the least. Maybe this isnt your plan but from my point of view it sure does seem like it....

Vindicator wrote:What I can say I DID DO was, when I paid Myrd to add some features to the myth engine long ago. One of the things I got myrd to do was increase the view distance/max rendering distance that the myth engine could do. Myrd did increase it, but not to the extent that it is now. It helped prove we did not know what the max distance the myth engine could render actually was. We are showing what MYTH CAN CURRENTLY DO. Showing what we have to work with, and proof of concept of large scale stuff IN THE ENGINE.

Thank you for clarifying that by the way.

vinylrake wrote:Seriously Ren, WTH are you talking about? Do you guys even know/agree on what this project is?

No they wake up in the morning with new ideas on how to get the myth community on their side and then they post about it and post again...then they go back and read what they posted then they edit the posts then they get frustrated and during this whole time they forgot to take their meds so they squirm and sweat and scream out "BUNGIE!!!"