tain.totalcodex.net

Doobie wrote:the tfl and m3 demos can be updated, magma has only updated the m2 demo cause that's where our primary interest lies, perhaps flyingflip will update the m3 demo, that's their call.

I have a feeling it might happen sometime, Blades could take inspiration from you guys. TFL won't attract much interest though to be honest, a release in demo format for the 2007 anniversary celebrations would be cool though - some guys are sure to search sites for Myth if games sites advertise the birthday and we need to get em playing again.

In the unlikely scenario that take2 re-released any of the games, it's highly unlikely they would choose to use the latest builds as they haven't undergone the detailed testing phase that any big company has to go through. I've heard this would cost upwards of $50 000 usd, and t2 doesn't seem to have that much interest in the series.

Any interest infact, beyond the high price they'd charge for us to buy it

Considering how buggy Myth III's Gold release was, you sure about that Doobie?

Lugas wrote:I think Take2 shipping it with the latest builds is unlikely. Plus the only moral thing to do would be to ask Magma/FlyingFlip if the latest patches were included.

I think we established they're not too morale. And when Blades got his hands on Myth source code he legally gave them permission to use whatever he (or people he gave permission to) created. They won't be reshipped I imagine.

Although, if Take2 decided to approve of the latest builds, they would make more money out of TFL/SB because the Mac build won't work on Windows and vice versa. This was already the case for TWA.

Myth II was always multiformat. I believe TFL is the same too. The only issue now would be the fact that Myth would not run native if you were running it on v1.3 (the last Bungie patch).

If Take2 decided to re-release them (which is very unlikely, unless we all went to their Office and asked them politely), I would like that. Because it would attract new members to the Myth community. Asking MythDev first (provided they decided to use the latest builds) would be nice.

Stop fantasising. It won't happen.

Also, T2 have crippled Myth. Myth III was doomed before it was finished, because it was doomed when it was released because it was unfinished.

Well they had no obligation to give us a Myth III at all. Look at it that way, they ruined Myth III and they screwed MJ but Myth was not crippled really I woulda said.

Thanks a lot , T2.

They care, they really care. I'm sure.

Your posts are all so naive Lugas. In time you'll learn how these things work. Real time, real money, real bad people real good people etc.

The Elfoid wrote:They were fired after it was made then forced to release patches that barely helped it too. They weren't even allowed to fix it up.

You could call it semantics, but as a programmer myself who has lived through and been forced to call something "finished" when it isn't, I am speaking from experience when I say that if something hasn't been fully debugged, it isn't "finished" - no matter what the suits in marketing or accounting say.

The Elfoid wrote:Santa's Head is known to have said his own opus, WWII was infact impossible on Myth III. There's no way he would have let that happen if the team had more time. OK so he was just an artist, but he clearly had some involvement in the dev process.

I think you are showing your own naivete here. If you are hired as an artist/level designer for Myth III no one is really going to give a flying flip whether a 3rd party conversion for a previous game can be ported to the new game or not. At least no one at the company, and developers working under deadlines aren't going to spend valuable time working to make that possible.

The Elfoid wrote:They're not game developers remember. Dev teams usually at least start around a passion for games. Take2 are just a corporation of administration and money.

I know the difference Elf, I was just pointing out that imo TakeTwo are not nice people, even though they let the myth community edit the Myth source code. If they aren't even selling Myth 2 anymore letting people edit the code for free probably seems like an insane activity to them. giving permission for mythdev to work on the code was probably similar to them to dropping a nickel in the crazy homeless guy's styrofoam cup.

The Elfoid wrote:I think they would need crediting, unsure though.

I am not privy to the agreement but from what I know of it TakeTwo retains ALL rights to the Myth series of games AND any modifications made to the code by the group or it's agents who have worked on the code in the intervening years. I doubt there is a clause that TakeTwo have to acknowledge anyone who works on the code. Look at it logically - software companies don't have to acknowledge their own developers, why would they be/feel obligated to acknowledge people who don't even work for them who did work for them for free? It might be the nice thing to do, or the 'moral' (not morale) thing to do, but I would be really suprised if there was any clause in their agreement with MythDev to acknowledge the volunteer coders should they ever use (take back) the code again.

"In time you'll learn how these things work."

I like it how you say that, and then go on to say this...

"Real time, real money, real bad people real good people etc."

Without realising that you don't get real 'bad' or 'good'. The world doesn't slot into kiddy stereotypes like that!

William Wallet wrote:Without realising that you don't get real 'bad' or 'good'. The world doesn't slot into kiddy stereotypes like that!

Sure it does. There's "us" and "them", and if you don't truly believe that then the software terrorists have won.

vinylrake wrote:

The Elfoid wrote:They were fired after it was made then forced to release patches that barely helped it too. They weren't even allowed to fix it up.

You could call it semantics, but as a programmer myself who has lived through and been forced to call something "finished" when it isn't, I am speaking from experience when I say that if something hasn't been fully debugged, it isn't "finished" - no matter what the suits in marketing or accounting say.

I agree totally, I'm not sure why I'm being quoted here

I think you are showing your own naivete here. If you are hired as an artist/level designer for Myth III no one is really going to give a flying flip whether a 3rd party conversion for a previous game can be ported to the new game or not. At least no one at the company, and developers working under deadlines aren't going to spend valuable time working to make that possible.

He made it sound as if MJ was a fairly small group and everyone had some degree of influence but Take2 totally over-ruled them. The developers knew that Fear/Loathing were a huge part of Myth II's appeal.

I am not privy to the agreement but from what I know of it TakeTwo retains ALL rights to the Myth series of games AND any modifications made to the code by the group or it's agents who have worked on the code in the intervening years. I doubt there is a clause that TakeTwo have to acknowledge anyone who works on the code. Look at it logically - software companies don't have to acknowledge their own developers, why would they be/feel obligated to acknowledge people who don't even work for them who did work for them for free? It might be the nice thing to do, or the 'moral' (not morale) thing to do, but I would be really suprised if there was any clause in their agreement with MythDev to acknowledge the volunteer coders should they ever use (take back) the code again.

Look at it another way; if MythDev asked for such a clause (as a lot of people would in such a scenario - we all like credit right?) what cause would they have to refuse. It doesn't matter to T2 much.

vinylrake wrote:

William Wallet wrote:Without realising that you don't get real 'bad' or 'good'. The world doesn't slot into kiddy stereotypes like that!

Sure it does. There's "us" and "them", and if you don't truly believe that then the software terrorists have won.

Hahaha, that was brill.

The Elfoid wrote:

vinylrake wrote:

The Elfoid wrote:They were fired after it was made...

I agree totally, I'm not sure why I'm being quoted here

Because I disagree that they were fired 'AFTER IT WAS MADE' - it wasn't done, so it was only partly made. That was my point. If you completely agree than just chalk my comment up to pickyness over what I perceived to be imprecise language.

The Elfoid wrote:Look at it another way; if MythDev asked for such a clause (as a lot of people would in such a scenario - we all like credit right?) what cause would they have to refuse. It doesn't matter to T2 much.

Since they kept the rights to the game one can assume that they were hedging their bets - leaving open the remote possibility (at least as perceived by them I am sure) that the Myth developers might come up with something so great that they would want to release it themselves. In order to make that possible they kept ALL the rights to distribute and resell the game. If they had to give credit to the non TakeTwo individuals who worked on the game I could imaging that MythDev (name used generically) might have some legal standing for trying to get some $ from TakeTwo for 'services rendered'. I am of course just guessing off the top of my head, I am not in the gaming industry and my only legal background is that I don't have an illegal background.

vinylrake wrote:

The Elfoid wrote:

vinylrake wrote:

The Elfoid wrote:They were fired after it was made...

I agree totally, I'm not sure why I'm being quoted here

Because I disagree that they were fired 'AFTER IT WAS MADE'

Wow, let's see how many quotes we can pile up!

Khadrelt wrote:

vinylrake wrote:

The Elfoid wrote:

vinylrake wrote:

The Elfoid wrote:They were fired after it was made...

I agree totally, I'm not sure why I'm being quoted here

Because I disagree that they were fired 'AFTER IT WAS MADE'

Wow, let's see how many quotes we can pile up!

They didn't make the Myth III they wanted, but they made A Myth III.

Since they kept the rights to the game one can assume that they were hedging their bets - leaving open the remote possibility (at least as perceived by them I am sure) that the Myth developers might come up with something so great that they would want to release it themselves. In order to make that possible they kept ALL the rights to distribute and resell the game. If they had to give credit to the non TakeTwo individuals who worked on the game I could imaging that MythDev (name used generically) might have some legal standing for trying to get some $ from TakeTwo for 'services rendered'. I am of course just guessing off the top of my head, I am not in the gaming industry and my only legal background is that I don't have an illegal background.

If T2 have all ownership writes MD can't claim any money I'd imagine.

The truth about Myth 3 is just ugly.

try some reading:
http://www.mobygames.com/company/gathering
http://www.contrabandent.com/company.html
http://www.macworld.com/news/2001/11/07/myth3/
http://www.mumbojumbo.com/
http://www.planetcrap.com/topics/381/
http://web.archive.org/web/200202072129 ... s_022.html

Now look at the developer list for M3 and see who worked on myth is still at MJ. Then go back and look at who donated their free time to try and fix the game. Then think about Enron. The guys the community attacked, were just as much victims as the rest of the us and took the abuse as long as they could, because telling the truth would have hurt their careers. Oni had a 3.5 year incubation period, seriously... think about it. Notice that although the game was a flop, MJ is sitting pretty as a company now. Given the market value of Take2, the potential of this market (none), and the value of static assets, there is no way T2 is going to do anything but sit on this stuff just for potential use. If a rag-tag bunch of developers turned Myth into a succes after they sold it for $10K (or even $50K) how would that look to investors? Seriously, it wont happen, if only to prevent themselves from looking bad.

Myth is not the only orphaned franchise, sorry to rain on the parade... but this is well covered territory.

I don't think the current Mumbo-Jumbo is the same entity. I could be wrong though.

The Mumbo-Jumbo of TWA was working on porting PC games over to the Mac and on console games, and on the PC version of TWA, this MJ is an internet / java / browser-based game company. But to tell you the truth it's hard to keep track of the complicated relationships game companies have with each other. ex. Here's a quote I found attributed to Andrew Meggs the mac TWA project leader

"My email ends in ritual.com, my paycheck is signed by United Developers, my last trade show badge said MacPlay, our voice mail used to have bad days when it said, "Thank you for calling ParSoft," and the Baldur's Gate II port and the Myth 3 development are both contracted to Mumbo Jumbo at an office where every single programmer comes from Contraband. It's just business as usual in a very incestuous industry."

yeah, you are mistaken. The post is purposely obtuse, if you connect the dots, though... it's all there.

The 'about us' part of the page 'bout a year ago mentioned M3. So even if staff have changed from a technical perspective MJ is MJ

The Elfoid wrote:The 'about us' part of the page 'bout a year ago mentioned M3. So even if staff have changed from a technical perspective MJ is MJ

Yes. but saying that doesn't really mean much, because technically Bungie is still Bungie, but we both know that is only true in the strictest technical sense.

What I meant was I wasn't sure if you were saying whoever runs mumbojumbo.com and makes games (or whatever the URl is) is the original company in any form at all.