tain.totalcodex.net

Thanks for your response lank. if you read the Terms of use license agreement in the back of all the myth game manuals it says the degree of wich things made, based on their technology fall into.

well zeph do you really think getting evreybody to agree on anything is going to happen? heh maybe bungie should have gotten comunity approval to have the next myth game after myth TFL be Myth 2 SB.
I would have rather seen a story based on another age, then one that takes place only 60 years after TFL. damn the only avatara at that point left is alric.

Zeph wrote:Before calling a random story myth 4, wouldnt it be wise for it to get community approval? I don't mind a Myth 4 unless the story totally makes no sense

"Community Approval"? That's silly. I don't think the myth "community" would agree to put water on ourselves if we were on fire.

that said, back to another topic - the permission to create plugins for Myth or Myth II hasn't "expired". That's a very silly thing to say and a less than flimsy bit of fluff to base an argument or course of action on.

Unless I am mistaken, even the version of Fear and Loathing that Take2 currently sells as part of the Myth Worlds game has the standard Bungie permission to create things as long as Bungie is credited. Granted that's a bit odd, but either A) that was a stipulation of the sale of the Myth franchise to Take2 - e.g. they can sell anything based on the games or the games themselves but they can't change the permission Bungie granted to use Fear and Loathing, or B) Take2 is just too lazy (or hasn't noticed) to change a readme file and make a new Master CD image for Myth Worlds.

Either way, the version of Fear and Loathing I have says I can make things for Myth. Take2 can't take away a right granted to me by Bungie that dates back to before Take2 owned Myth. Even if they changed the permissions or took them away for current purchaser, my product is from Bungie.

To Vinyl:

I dont mean to call you or anyone specifically homophobic or childish vinyl, if anybody proposes a well-arranged arguement it's some of the upper echelon of veteran mythers. And I do respect your opinion, and know that your concern stems not from need for lashing but an actual critical analysis given the known data - and I can respect that.

I also thank you for your considerably large and well-thought-out post, lank. We see eye to eye on certain things, but I will say this - if take 2 posted somewhere - heck even on these forums - that we all had to C&D development on ANY myth project - much less all of them - would you?

They would have to come to my house and rip my hard drive out and find the backup drive I have sitting under a bunch of crap.

It wouldnt be easy to keep me from mything - something tells me you guys wouldnt let it stop you either.

Not that I want to tempt fate - far from it - but at this point there isn't much they can physically do to enforce much of anything.

oogaBooga wrote:I also thank you for your considerably large and well-thought-out post, lank.

and i yours. you injected some much needed clarity into the fray at a moment when things were almost off the rails.

(n.b. admittedly, this could be read, in a sensitive state of mind, as a swipe at ren and possibly others: it is not; it is merely an observation of the state of the discussion at that time, and i hope no one takes offense at it, if anyone happen to be inclined to do so. peace!)

We see eye to eye on certain things, but I will say this - if take 2 posted somewhere - heck even on these forums - that we all had to C&D development on ANY myth project - much less all of them - would you?

admittedly, most likely not - they couldn't stop me, and for similar reason as you lay out below. but they could kill myth by giving it the death of no more application development, which, as has been explained, could happen if someone tried to release a new game based on myth's code, for example. they needn't outright stop mapmakers who work with existing tools to make plugins (and i doubt they could legally, either), but the stagnation of never again having anything new to inspire more creative uses of the engine would eventually kill myth, and sooner than at the current rate. not that the pool's that close to drying up at this stage, especially once 1.7 hits public release, but i'm sure you understand what i mean.

from my knowledge of iron, myrd, et al., much as it would pain them, they would not risk arousing the legal force that could rightfully be brought to bear if they transgressed any legal c&d order against any continuing myth code development.

They would have to come to my house and rip my hard drive out and find the backup drive I have sitting under a bunch of crap.

It wouldnt be easy to keep me from mything - something tells me you guys wouldnt let it stop you either.

Not that I want to tempt fate - far from it - but at this point there isn't much they can physically do to enforce much of anything.

all true for plugin development, of course, unless they send a cease and desist letter to magma's coders working on 1.7+ (assuming there may be more, sooner or later, after this next release, going by past trends* ), and then it's the death described above.

good to hear from you, though, ooga, even if it does take a flame war to bring us both out of the woodwork of whatever's keeping us each busy to post.

* not to be taken as official word that such will happen, of course!

well I do hope nobody from take 2 then is reading all this posts and we are giving them fantastic ideas to shut us down...
specially that paid service to play myth online, what was the name?

..and really glad you guys started to chill out, for a moment I thought the whole community was going to go down in flames...
by the way nice to see you so busy working with myth ooga! cheers on that

In all honesty, unless Bungie or Magma (who has been allowed to release items) put out something, there will not be a Myth 4, or a 1.7 or WHATEVER.

Man what I wouldn't give to have Bungie come in here and save the day.

EDIT: Oh and honestly I don't care if anyone from Take 2 IS looking at these forums, if so, I have a comment for you, "Thanks alot you POSs for ruining our beloved game series because you didn't get your heads out of your asses". There we go.

GodzFire wrote:In all honesty, unless Bungie or Magma (who has been allowed to release items) put out something, there will not be a Myth 4, or a 1.7 or WHATEVER.

Well, Magma hasn't actually been given permission, have they?

Not trying to start anything, but its an important distinction to make.

Amadeus wrote:

GodzFire wrote:In all honesty, unless Bungie or Magma (who has been allowed to release items) put out something, there will not be a Myth 4, or a 1.7 or WHATEVER.

Well, Magma hasn't actually been given permission, have they?

Not trying to start anything, but its an important distinction to make.

I believe the way it's put is that Magma's work is tolerated because it doesn't specifically either harm or try to make profit off of Take 2's IP.

Anyways Ama, didn't you quit Myth for WoW?

Maybe I missed something, but is M4TWA going to be sold? Is any profit going to be forseeably made? If not, then I'm not sure what the problem is. At least something creative is being done with this lovely engine bungie left us.

£N wrote:Maybe I missed something, but is M4TWA going to be sold? Is any profit going to be forseeably made? If not, then I'm not sure what the problem is. At least something creative is being done with this lovely engine bungie left us.

My understanding is that it will not be sold. That doesn't mean it isn't a violation of IP laws.

-DA

Horus wrote: Anyways Ama, didn't you quit Myth for WoW?

Not really, I stopped playing for a bit, then quit wow and started a bunch of personal projects related to Myth 3. Lately though, I've been looking at other engines to mess with a group of modders.

Death's Avatar wrote:

£N wrote:Maybe I missed something, but is M4TWA going to be sold? Is any profit going to be forseeably made? If not, then I'm not sure what the problem is. At least something creative is being done with this lovely engine bungie left us.

My understanding is that it will not be sold. That doesn't mean it isn't a violation of IP laws.

-DA

Excuse me, but you used the word "is" in a comparable way to my previous post. I believe that is a violation of my intellectual property! Go invent your own words, if you can't afford to buy them! If "IP" were something real then we'd all be guilty to the nth degree. It's only human, and maybe more, to build on top of what has come before. I understand that there are and perhaps should be limits but to me claiming something is IP is simply a joke: "There is nothing new under the sun," as the wise philosopher once said.

Better to acknowledge that and get on with it than to get all in huff over meaningless legalities, which are always changing anyway. Stifles yer creativity if you ask me. Just my opinion of course, don't bother trying to draw me into your petty little tea party! (you know well who you be!!)

£N wrote:Maybe I missed something, but is M4TWA going to be sold? Is any profit going to be forseeably made? If not, then I'm not sure what the problem is. At least something creative is being done with this lovely engine bungie left us.

No.

M4Twa will not be sold as a standalone product unless we magically happen to own the license. Which we don't. So no worries about some legal BS about trying to sell a game with someone else's engine - we're above that.

It will however be pitched as either the design model for a possible new game, with the incentive that we could pull talented people from the community to work with us for free on the content if they would only buy out the myth license and maybe hire a modeler and animator. At the very best of circumstances even ask for a graphics programmer to give myth 16 bit colormaps and collections (would be so much better as a 16 bit jpeg) and also lift the unit limitations and other restrictions. It would essentially be the same engine, but with better graphics and streamlines for modern machines (and not the dinosaurs that represent myth 2's minimum requirements).

The pitch is this - content is worked on for free, only three or four people max would need to have a salary - and honestly the things we need done are sort of "set and forget".

They arent the kind of alteration like physics that can adversely affect the game later on as unforseen consequences arise - for instance if you added the ability for units to get in vehicles (or on horses) in a hard-coded engine sort of way, who knows how it could mess up the delicate balance of the engine and cause new glitches - but things like we want, things like better image resolution - theyre MUCH easier and more feasible.

Simply changing the renderer from 8 to 16 bit compression. Once thats done, there wont be any crazy bugs to pop up in the future. It's almost as simple as raising the maximum limits for objects/monsters/etc, with the same type of immunity to future bugs that simple changes like that make.

Basically what i'm saying is - CHEAP TO MAKE, and with the actual myth license and some funding behind it, it could be actually worthy of the mantle M4. Not to mention every myth game has sold MINIMUM of ~225,000~ copies each - even myth 3. It doesnt take a genius to figure out that CONTENT BEING MADE FOR ALMOST NOTHING + CHEAP LICENSE = even a lousy underselling of 150,000 sold copies at 20 dollars a piece [<---this is what i edited:P]would rake in at least 3,000,000 before the slice. Imagine if it were sold at 30 dollars a piece and made.. 200,000 sales?! thats even lower than the lowest myth sale turnout, and guess what the earnings on that would be? - 6,000,000. Six million. Not 600,000, six MILLION.

I'm not doing this for money. I dont expect to be paid. If I get lucky and people see what i'm doing - what WE'RE doing - and want to lend us a financial helping hand - they can expect to be rewarded greatly with both a product to be proud of and considerable profit.

Most of it wouldnt go to us - but as long as some of it did I would work until shipping day for nary a penny - I would rather they not pay me and then use that money to pay a modeler to make me the most badass units in existence so i could amber it for free in my spare time.



BUT I DIGRESS! Bottom line - unless we own the Myth license, none of you will have to worry about us doing anything nefarious or legally dangerous with the Myth license.

If you put it in your plugins folder its a plugin - ren doesnt want to admit thats what we're doing but sorry ren at the moment it is 100% plugin and you can't deny that.

Anyways just setting some sh1t straight.

-ooga

thanks ooga. good to read.