tain.totalcodex.net

The Elfoid wrote:Rather than something like the OOH map-packs which contain lots of plugins. If you can turn on all the maps in one go, it makes people MUCH more likely to bother.

The packs of plugins that you speak of are actually several tagset plugins. It lets the user pick what units to have on the maps being used. They are not mappacks at all. So it has NOTHING to do with an actual mappack plugin. Different things. Hopefully that clears it up for you.

The Elfoid wrote:If you can turn on all the maps in one go, it makes people MUCH more likely to bother. As Graydon says, they're dead lazy.

That's just silly, the only person who has to turn anything on is the host.

Lazy hosts don't have to activate any plugins if they don't want to - they can just stick to the standard Bungie maps, but that doesn't really seem like an issue to me at all.

Graydon wrote: And qwerty, who's to say that the dev team just didnt have the on-hand help at the time to get it done right? Who's to say they don't have that help now? Don't be a downer.

The reason wasn't because it couldn't be done, but because it would make the patch too large. I'm too lazy but I'm sure you could search through the beta-testers forum and find the threads.


Personally I think that the 3 I mentioned should be included and added to the list of 'normal maps', the reason they arn't played now is because they are not in the default list and people are either lazy, or forget that they even exist.

I was in favour of including those plugins in the patch back then, but other dev team ppl felt otherwise, not just because of the size factor but also because packaging the plugins inside a patch was a needless duplication - it'd be yet another "version" of the same plugins.

Anyway, we've recently discussed a mechanism by which the plugins could be distributed with 1.7 but in their original form (ie not a "patch"), yet nonetheless shown in the list of levels without having to activate the plugins.

Whether this gets implemented I don't know, as our resources are very thin & stretched (Myrd & Melekor do 99% of the work and they're busy guys IRL), and its really up to them to decide if its a priority or not, assuming someone like Baak or myself don't stir ourselves into action & do it.

vinylrake wrote:Lazy hosts don't have to activate any plugins if they don't want to - they can just stick to the standard Bungie maps, but that doesn't really seem like an issue to me at all.

I was always pretty sure that part of why the TFL multis were so popular was not just that they're good maps (there's lots of them out there), it was because at the click of a button you had access to a LOT of maps and you knew EVERYONE who had the pack had one. It's much easier than having to check if everyone in the game has this or that individual map which they are far less likely to - almost everyone has the TFL multis.

If someone orders a cocktail they're less likely to be interested in it if you ask them to mix it themselves. That's what they pay extra for. Consider this mixing up the cocktail.

I'd rather lazy hosts were encouraged to play more maps, because while it is their choice to be lazy, it would improve the variety of maps the rest of us get to play.

There couldn't really be an "MWC standard pack" plugin because half of those are Creation plugins, but something along those lines would be easy to organise. As for iron's comment about "another version" of plus, we'd make the switch quick enough.

iron wrote:I was in favour of including those plugins in the patch back then, but other dev team ppl felt otherwise, not just because of the size factor but also because packaging the plugins inside a patch was a needless duplication - it'd be yet another "version" of the same plugins.

Anyway, we've recently discussed a mechanism by which the plugins could be distributed with 1.7 but in their original form (ie not a "patch"), yet nonetheless shown in the list of levels without having to activate the plugins.

Whether this gets implemented I don't know, as our resources are very thin & stretched (Myrd & Melekor do 99% of the work and they're busy guys IRL), and its really up to them to decide if its a priority or not, assuming someone like Baak or myself don't stir ourselves into action & do it.

Well, I will keep my fingers crossed. I really want to see them as a part of the game.

This thread highlights the fact that no one can agree on what are good criteria for inclusion. Worthiness? Canon? How good the creators are at promoting their stuff? Whether they were created by someone who knew some dude who interned at Bungie once?

Call me a traditionalist, but what's the point in bloating the download with plugins, no matter how good they are?

Just keep the core package as basic as it needs to be and focus on making the other maps easily accessible. It sounds like 1.7 has already made that easier with red games linking through to The Tain, and there's tons of map standards and map packs out there to choose from.

The biggest problem isn't finding maps, it's finding people with whom to play them, and at the right times (we don't all run on US evening time).

I think when all is said and done I still come back to the same place Gholsbane just outlined so well.

Sure we can make it easier to download plugins, but the sad fact is that a surprisingly large number of people just don't. There are a lot of myth players that if they even have any plugins, the odds are, it will be WWII: Recon.

Say what you will, but I would like a little fresh air in the stale map list.

I mean in no way that the original maps are bad, as they are almost all top notch, and appeal to all types of players, however, they have been the same maps that have been played for the last 10 years.

Look at the games list in the lobby, Mazz and Recon are the only plugins played about 98% of the time, sure having it easier to download plugins will make a few people get more plugins, but a large chunk still wont care.

If everyone has the same maps though, I will bet you that you will start to see more games on the new maps, since they are built in, everyone has them, and you don't have to worry about people being kicked from not having them.

The reason I am suggesting the bungie maps is that no one can argue that they are not up to par with the maps in game. Sure badlands maps might be good, but there are also a lot of other good plugins, and once you start including plugins, where is the line drawn. Bungie maps are one thing, just good third party ones are another.

Hehe, people *are* arguing that they aren't up to par with the built in maps, because some of them aren't :)

Also, what constitutes a Bungie map? No one can seem to agree on that one either.

Also, there are maps that some people consider *better* than those maps, some of which weren't even completed. Bungie never really packaged those maps as "official", they just made them for fun and put them out there, just like any other 3rd party map.

After reading all the discussion here about which maps should be included, which shouldn't, which versions of which maps are better, which maps should be 'fixed' for inclusion, which 3rd party ports of Bungie TFl maps should be included, etc... I agree 100% with Gholsbane.

No more maps 'shipped' as part of Myth II v1.7.

I would be willing make exceptions for the three actually completed and officially released Bungie maps - Leagues, Boil & Bubble, and Seven Phoenix Rising, but only if it's those three and NOTHING ELSE, because if including those 3 means other maps will be up for potential inclusion and discussion I'd rather see NO new maps get added than alter what's always been Myth II.

Anyone remember those posts CP was putting up a few months back about WoW and updates to it, and how hugely drastic those changes are?

Why are the dedicated myth players so fucking stuck up with 'how it has always been'?

What is wrong with CHANGE people? Thats the real question, not whether we should include maps or not, what the hell is wrong with Change? Cause it's that big gripe that people seem to have issues with. They want everything to be the same as it has for 10 years.

: smacks forehead : WHY?!

because the sensible solution is to leave things as they are?

no really it is, unless bungie people themselves pop out of nowhere with bug free, balanced versions of the maps, there will always be debate on whether they should be included or not

and with the nifty feature so you're quickly directed to the tain on red games, I see less reason to include them now then ever before

Change? You think _I_ am resistant to "change" just because I don't think it's a good use of time or resources to debate whose version of which unfinished map should be included in the latest release of Myth 2? You have to be kidding. Seriously, I am part of an order frequently ridiculed for playing SO many "non-bungie-like" 3rd party maps and plugins, I created a set of deadly and often completely ridiculous net balls ("Balls of Death") to spice up games like Bacon and Captures, and my ordermate Baak is author of such "standard" Bungie creations like Stoneheart Returns RDF with randomly opening and closing gates that create an ever changing maze, Rocket Dorf Fest (say no more), and Uber Ghol Riot.

Seriously, again. You HAVE to be kidding me.

I don't think Gray was referring to you, but to everyone discussing this topic.