tain.totalcodex.net

Renwood TWA wrote:O yea and good idea pyro we should all list our system specs:

Not to be too picky, but in the credit where credit is due department, it was my idea to poll users to find out what specs people have.

Renwood TWA wrote:VR dont forget the 24 bit color maps that Oak can create, and the super high res units from the likes of our dev team, Hooligan and Carlinho.

I am not forgetting any of those things, but since none of them are in public release we might as well be talking about magical fairies and unicorns. This isn't to disparage the people creating these wonderful additions to Myth, or to say that they aren't being worked on and aren't the coolest thing since TFL, I am just saying that counting on/planning for things that aren't done yet is a foolish endevor. For example, can you give me even an estimated release date for ANY of the high res units you cite above?

Renwood TWA wrote:They look really good, even much better then other RTS games like the total war series.

I'll be happy to talk about them WHEN they are released to the public and become part of the playable Myth II world. I haven't heard a release date for Myth II v1.7 yet (that has the map textures, right?) and last I heard there were potential issues with displaying the beautiful huge high res graphics that Carlinho is employing (and you and Holigan are planning on employing) . So... MAYBE those things will make it into the community, maybe they won't. Maybe Myrd or Iron or whoever has the latest Myth II source code will get hit by a bus and no one will have access to their encrypted backup files so all the enhancements in 1.7 will dissapear from the face of the earth.

Renwood TWA wrote:We are even making all new high res screnary, like multi angle trees and bushes/weeds/grasses.

See my earlier comment about counting on or planning for things that aren't done. [Also, I am sure you didn't mean to equate the two, but in your sentence above, it SOUNDS like you are saying that multi-angle scenery is the same as 'high res scenery'. Probably your project is doing BOTH, but of course they aren't the same thing]

Renwood TWA wrote:Yes myth will never look like crysis or some other super fancy first person shooters, but then again RTS games are NEVER on par with FPS games in terms of graphics.

Why shouldn't they be? It's only hardware that is the limitation. Increase the hardware enough and an RTS game COULD compete with an FPS - at least if you zoomed in enough. If you have enough power, then intelligent switching of detail resolution depending on camera distance is all it would take, right? Look at the 'Massive' computer app that they created fany or the Lord of the Rings battle scenes - that's an RTS that competes with FPS in terms of graphics. It's just a matter of having enough fast enough hardware...

Renwood TWA wrote:Also my fellow mythers, never forget increasing system specs with more units on screen or more projectiles wont make any map for myth 2 made not work for people with older computers, because they would only make a difference on NEW maps. All the current myth 2 maps ever made would work just fine like they allways did for evreybody.

I belive its kinda like the detail textures feature in 1.7 with Oak, what are you gonna do, not support great new things like Oak because some people who dont have OpenGL cards wont be able to see the new 24 bit map textures?

I believe your comparison is flawed because there is a very distinct difference in the two examples you compare. In the case of upping the projectiles or hardware or system specs you are talking about making new maps that players with older computers WON'T BE ABLE TO PLAY, or which if they do play will cause OOS with everyone playing the game. In the case of detail textures EVERYONE can play all maps and see a normal Myth II map, in ADDITION IF you have the right hardware (Open GL) THEN you can see ADDITIONAL detail, but whether you have old or new hardware YOU CAN STILL PLAY THE NEW and OLD MAPs. I am sure you understand the difference between adding features that gracefully reveal themselves if you have the right hardware vs. adding features that stop people from being able to play maps that take advantage of the new features. Graceful reveal of additional features=Goodness. Breaking people's ability to play Myth on new maps=Badness.

As a programmer, I appreciate and applaud the solution Myrd/Iron (or whoever worked on this bit) came up with for implementing the textures - it's a very elegant and no-impact solution to the question of how to add functionality without having an adverse impact on gamers with older computers.

Renwood TWA wrote:...and maybe draw in some more people with the updated more action packed nature of new myth content.

I LOVe Myth, it's the best computer game I have EVER played by far (and I've played a lot of computer games) but I really think you are living in a dreamworld if you think upping projectile limits and camera zoom and allowing better 2D sprite images for units/scenery is going to bring in more than a few new players to the Myth community. and unless I am forgetting something (which IS a distinct possibility) none of the enhancements you've talked about for either Myth II 1.7 or The Wind Age make Myth "more action packed". Destructable and more realistic scenery? Multicolored blood and gore and realistic body parts when units die? More detailed and colorful unit and model bitmaps? Textured colormaps? All cool no doubt (except the multicolored blood and gore - I'll have to see that before I have a strong opinion one way or the other), but not more 'action packed'. The action is in the Myth engine and it was there back in the days of 480x640 pixellated goodness and it's there today at 1290xwhatever resolution.

note: This isn't meant to disparage people who live in general in a dreamworld, or

Well detailed textures do exist, even if in a beta version of Myth II. Those high res units some people have created, do exist even if some have yet to be made public. And last but not least... Myth... is... an... RTT! Even if you consider RTT as a sub genre, calling it an RTS is odd to me. You can't compare the limits of RTS games with an RTT. RTS games use huge armies, Myth is not that type of game.

iron wrote:

Have you tried contacting Melekor? I have an idea he _may_ have copies of them, but I could be wrong of course.

Nah, I wasn't aware that he did.
Is he on this forum/does he read PMs?

Zeph wrote:you can buy a computer for 300$ that is going to run myth with 200+ FPS on max resolution these days, there's no reason not to upgrade myth specs......

Just look at those Dell hybrids or the small HP computers

myth is not Crysis, you dont need 3x SLI 8800GTX to run it, just need a pentium 4 processor.

Crysis Warhead (the next installment) just requires a $500 Computer...

VR the one problem with what you say is:

You dont know anything about video games.
If you did, you would be at least decent at this game you have been playing for 11 years.

What exactly do you think was more impressive then these "Dream features" when myth went from tfl to myth 2?

Your understanding of what would add to "action" is questionable.

It's 2008. If your computer can only play myth, then you shouldn't bitch about not being able to play things like mazz - which stress the engine more than the normal bungie maps. As it stands, there are many maps that people on these dinosaurian computers CANNOT PLAY. So, this "no-myther-left-behind" strategy has already been thwarted by new maps.

Upping the proj/mons/etc limit will not fuck with the maps that already exist. It'll cut down on hitting the proj limit, but it's not going to cause NORMAL maps to go OOS any more than usual unless deathmatch is put on (which can make even normal computers go OOS given the right circumstances).

I have no sympathy for people who are too cheap to upgrade after THIS long of a time. Five years ago? Maybe that would have been a better time to consider those who are stuck in the past, but after this long, if you can't even play mazz on your current computer without significant lag slowdown or OOS, then there's no point trying to cater to you.

They can still play myth. If that's not enough for them, boo-effing-hoo, even a poor bastard like me was able to upgrade enough over time to be able to play modern games on decent settings. The kind of people who could pay for an internet connection to PLAY myth online are the kind of people who can save money and upgrade. There's really no excuse, because the answer to those excuses are as simple as:

Get a job , get a job, get a job. Save some money.

I worked at longs drugstore for a while, and I was able to upgrade my computer with minimum wage AND paying bills. If I can do it, anyone can. Any excuse beyond that is pure laziness. I dont see a point in catering to the lazy.

I'd like to hear the excuses from these people stuck in the computer stone age.

It's not like this simple truth will magically change people's minds and have limits raised, people are too set in their ways, but it's sad that nobody else came to the same conclusion - that people stuck in the past can continue playing bungie maps, and their ability to play new maps has already been hampered without the addition of new limit raising features.

(that tired old excuse of the changes invalidating films is pretty weak, considering that updates have ALREADY made tons of films unwatchable on anything except older versions - ive got a few versions of myth just so I can watch my older films, and am I complaining? nope. it's the price of progress)

Anyways, as zeph eloquently said:

"you can buy a computer for 300$ that is going to run myth with 200+ FPS on max resolution these days, there's no reason not to upgrade myth specs...... "

Also, there are processor upgrades for well under 300 dollars that will turn even a crappy old PC into something that can run myth very well. 300 dollars is not the minimal amount, that was just an example.

The only reason not to is purely conjecture, so no matter how good my reasoning is, chances are it'll simply get batted down because the only people with the power to do something, "dont want to do it".

I've already accepted this, but it sucks anyways.

And VR all the testers have 1.7 files. So at this point 1.7 is looking really good. i dont think anybody has found any real bugs in the last 2 builds.

So one guy getting hit by a buss wont make it all the cool things added in 1.7 go Poof.

There is no problem with huge unit collections, Carlinho and ooga have proven this sperately. carlinho's guys allready work in game, and in large battles.

Renwood TWA wrote:VR the one problem with what you say is:

You dont know anything about video games.
If you did, you would be at least decent at this game you have been playing for 11 years.

The problem Renwood is you seem unable to tell the difference between logic and reason and whatever is floating through your head at the moment you start typing.

Case in point, your remark above. Anyone with at least an adult functioning IQ level understands that KNOWLEDGE of something is NOT the same as SKILL at that thing. That's true for music, videogames, cinematography, sports, politics, pretty much any topic/skill you could come up with. Do you SERIOUSLY think that only people who are good at video games know anything about video games? Do you think all the great video game designers are great at PLAYING video games? I am sure it's a great self-rationalization you can use to dismiss my opinion without actually thinking about what I say, but this point - like so many others - is too absurd to even try to discuss rationally. I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who thinks your statement is an accurate reflection of reality.

Renwood TWA wrote:What exactly do you think was more impressive then these "Dream features" when myth went from tfl to myth 2?

tfl to SB was ONE year later. Back then the changes were significant enough that after a year people went 'wow'. After 10 years I don't believe the same kind of changes are going to wow anyone except people used to the 10 year old graphics of the game.

Renwood TWA wrote:Your understanding of what would add to "action" is questionable.

As is apparently your understanding of logic, reason and probably reality for that matter.

But to address your remark more specifically? I will agree that upping projectile limits and the number of units on a map would add to the amount of action on screen at a time, but as for the enhancements you specifically mention as adding more action? Tell me how a more detailed texture map adds to the 'action'. Tell me how scenery with multiple views adds to the 'action'. Tell me how high res units adds to the 'action'.


note: I am greatly looking forward to Myth II 1.7, OAK, The Wind Age, new high res units, etc. This is not meant to disparage these projects or their creators, I am just addressing what passes for Ren's 'logic', not the value of the enhancements themselves.

VR, I know about what im talking about.


READ THIS:

I mean all the features together finished and implemented in the end would be more action packed.

Renwood TWA wrote:VR, I know FAR MORE about what im talking about then you do.

My record and body of work prove that.

Ok Ren. If you say so then it must be true. Obviously, you have one opinion and I have another. Do you really think your opinion is right all the time?

Personally I am still waiting for some evidence of this 'body of work' you claim to have gathered all this expertise from. Something you specifically have created for Myth that will demonstrate this 'knowledge' you believe you have.

Hehe post editing ren!

Dear ren: Please go finish Myth 4: TWA

Dear VR: Please stop arguing so much. Can't you see it's futile?

This is a flame war. It is annoying. Stop it.

love,
DA

Renwood TWA wrote:You dont know anything about video games.
If you did, you would be at least decent at this game you have been playing for 11 years.

You don't have to be good at a game to know a lot about it. I feel I know Myth far better than anything I ever played on my SNES, Gamecube or N64. But give me any Nintendo console and I am mystically better at it.

Why? I'm just crap at Myth. And no amount of experience or knowledge is gonna change that.

I feel sure that even if VR were the worst Myther alive, that would not be because he knew nothing about video games.

Well if I never needed proof that this place is infested with fucksticks...