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Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 2:47 am
by trickstapriest
Units can only be respawned once? Or am I doing something totally, totally wrong with Loathing?
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:53 pm
by trickstapriest
And, for that matter, anyone know what things like the maximum amount of units and map actions are? (or if there IS a maximum, for the latter?)
I already know the maximum amount of visible units is 400... I'm mainly curious as to the limitations ~before~ I start writing out something expansive on paper. All too often I end up breaking the map editor I'm using in some manner, or just find it is impossible to do. Fortunately, the latter isn't so much a problem, it's just that programming this is going to use a ton of map actions and be a regular ~pain~ in the ass. As it is, I need to bribe a friend into doing a Color Map for me... ¬_¬
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:21 am
by trickstapriest
Never mind about the very first question. Now I can't get the fricking respawning to _stop_. I've even tried deleting the old units and making new ones. It is permanently locked on "constant respawning" and "respawn at death location". It's supposed to be "respawn via script" only (at original location) and I deleted the respawn script just in case, and it is STILL respawning. Anyone have -any- suggestions on this?
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:37 am
by lank
no answer on the last question, but for maximum number of map actions, i think the theoretical limit is 1024, but ghost finds an effective limit at roughly 700 actions.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:53 pm
by trickstapriest
Hmm... I don't suppose that will go up in later editions as well? I understand that is a lot, but as more options are opened up, maps will get MUCH more complicated. ^_^ I'm a super-slow developer, so I can wait for 1.7 or so to finish... :;):
Another question based on Respawning: Can you move units that are to be respawned while they are "dead"? That is, you can use Move Marker to move around men that are invisible and haven't been revealed yet, but can you do the same for Respawning units that have died? If not, are you capable of and are planning to implement something like that at some stage? I'm curious because it'll allow a lot more ways of using Respawning to extend the reuse of units, and it probably eats up a lot less memory than simply extending the maximum amount of units available.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:46 pm
by lank
there are no plans for anything beyond 1.5.1 as a bugfix release (which we're being patient to get right), so no increase in the number of actions, sorry.
in fact, even if we were going to do another update it may not then be possible to increase the number of actions. as i recall iron tried increasing the limit during the development phase of 1.4 and found that things become quite unstable.
this happened for quite a few limits, though not all. those which could reasonably be increased (and had good reason to increase) were.
if you're prepared for the possibility of heartbreak and worse, you could learn MUNGER scripting (though ideally from someone who has some experience with it to give you a kickstart).
MUNG actions replace bits of other actions and can even delete them while the game is running, so they can be very powerful if you have a core group of actions that are modified as necessary at various stages. there are more simple ways to use them that are still more economical than normal actions, though - the system i describe (incredibly roughly) is incredibly complex.
beware with MUNGs, though, as one of the first third party scripters to try using them (Aresâ„¢ of creation fame, who released the first ever third party solo map for myth 2) destroyed his computer by using a MUNG before he understood them properly. he was watching a model on his screen when the action came into play, then it turned on its side and jumped across the mesh for several seconds, crashing his computer so hard that all he could do was pull the plug. i think it damaged important bits on his hard drive, and i'm not sure if that maching was able to be used again without replacing it.
but since then, ghost and khellek have both become quite familiar with it, and other too, i believe.
so... be careful if you take that path, but know that there are possible ways to improve your scripting. 
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:44 pm
by trickstapriest
Alright. I've taken a look at MUNGing, and I think I could reasonably understand it, but I'd approach some things (like deleting actions) with extreme trepedation. Besides, wouldn't deleting actions not help because you'd still be over the 700 maximum initially? If you just deleted them when you started... well, that wouldn't be helpful at all.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:54 pm
by lank
you would only delete actions if you were certain they would never be used again, so yes, approach it with caution.
i don't pretend to really understand the mechanics of it, but it's concievable that taking the actions out of action will leave room for others to become active in that 700 range. if you knew when to delete actions it may improve performance because myth will no longer run through it as it goes through the actions every tick and test if it's active or not (if my understanding of how it works is correct).
even for replacing parameters i'd be extremely careful. i think it's possible to alter every aspect of any action (including other MUNGs and probably themselves, too) from MUNGs, barring a few things like activation time and "initially active" and other things in that dialogue window.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:52 pm
by trickstapriest
That sounds about right. Yes, I'd have to be very careful about it. I'm just a little worried about that limit as, like I noted, maps are going to try and get more complicated with all these additional options. It's still a decently high limit, but if you ever find a way of increasing that limit I think a lot of people will be interested. ^_^ Currently, I think my problems with respawning are more with the beta version of Loathing for the Mac. I highly suggest tinkering around with all the flags relating to Respawning, they function incorrectly and require odd combinations to try and get what you want. o.O
Though, do you know if you can use Move Marker on units that are waiting to be respawned? I stopped trying, but if you know that you can, I'll know to plan for that.
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:52 am
by lank
no idea on those, sorry. the beta version of loathing crashes when i open a mesh, and i'm not a scripter, so i'm not familiar with what the move marker action actually does.
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:06 am
by fear
ok, I found a bug with the mac 1.5 loathing that you are having. The Respawn via script and Respawn at Death Location are switched in the menu. If you want respawn via script, click respawn via Death Location, and vise versa for now for that option. I was making a map doing that.