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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:15 am
by igmo
igmo here, wanting a word with the members of project magma, and input from the myth community.
first, to the project magma folks (and those at mythdev, et.al.): i thank you sincerely for all your efforts in keeping myth current to new OS, fixing legitimate gameplay bugs, and improving the server interface/features. you have donated a great deal of blood, sweat and brain cells to myth, and that demands respect.
(here's the however that must follow that commendation:)
however, i feel that there is a fundamental flaw in the modification of the myth application whenever it focuses on gameplay. myth (as v1.3) kept the daily attention of 1000's of players worldwide due to its exceptional unit balance and the delicious complexity of its play. it was imperfect - with walking bugs, pathfinding and targeting issues - but the issues where known and could be played through.
since the community itself obtained access to the code, there have been numerous gameplay modifications. some were fixes for known issues in 1.3 - some were "improvements" based on a perceived deficiency in unit movement, targeting, etc. i propose that NONE of those modifications were needed. even with the flaws of 1.3, the game was extraordinarily fun to play due to balance. any modification at all upsets that balance.
personally, i am tired of relearning unit behavior with each new (large download) patch. i am disturbed by the numerous bugs i see in my limited gameplay on the 1.5 beta. (i've posted 2 significant flaws to the buglist, and play less than 5 games a day.) i do not look forward to future patches.
i propose a complete cessation of modification to the myth application, and request that those with an opinion on the subject reply below.
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:59 am
by Krusader
Myth 2 1.5 will be a bugfix release, fixing and sometimes refixing known flaws in 1.3 and 1.4. I have heard some of the Myth reggars complain about these patches:
1.3 was the best patch ever made who needs 1.4.
ProjectMagma are all TFLers who don't know anything about Myth2.
Another patch...another download!
Just adapt to your new Myth 2 enviorment.
Also, new gameplay is always fun, just look at TFL and Myth 2.
On a side note, I think 1.5 has some 1.3 Gameplay code in it, not sure. You might want to ask ProjectMagma about that. Also, another public beta will be released soon, so hopefully you'll like that one better than the first public beta.
Sincerely,
Krusader
Edited By Krusader on 1082646430
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:32 am
by Frumius
igmo raises valid points, but I definitely support ProjectMagma's continuing efforts to improve Myth 2.
By "improve" I mean working on compatibility and other bug-related issues. The gameplay itself is pretty good right now. I'd say fix up the bugs we have now and we have perfection.
Myth 2 has been (so far) THE game of a lifetime for me. I am sooooo grateful that you developer ppl have been tweaking it for compatibility (especially where new hardware and OS's are concerned). Thanks for bringing M2 native play and hardware rendering to OS X! Who0T!
Thanks,
Frumius
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:04 am
by qwerty2
Krusader wrote:Just adapt to your new Myth 2 enviorment.
Why the hell should we adapt? we played myth for what it was at 1.3. The updated graphics and support for modern opperating systems were good but every single other fix that which was implemented was not asked for, needed or wanted.
Don't say any bullshit about most of the community was in favour of it because of the playing population barely anyone liked it. The only people who did support it were WW2'ers who had no concept of what was changed and a few forum monkeys who hadn't played myth in years.
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:19 am
by clem
Sadly... you guys actually think Magma is going to stop their personal modifications to Myth?
Even if they stop showing additions in readme's they will not stop farking things.
The list of things initially changed in 1.4 is staggering when you look at code comments. Many more things than EVER were shown.
I'm "sure" they've changed those practices since then.
I'm also "sure" someone will likely quicly follow-up this comment with "OMFG WHAT DO YOU KNOW CLEM", or "OMFG FLAME-BAIT".
Things were changed and continue to be changed simply as a hobby and with the approach of "hey, wouldn't this be cool?"
It's wrong, but at this point I do not think it's ever going to change or be reverted.
Just my impressions.
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:33 am
by Spond!Max
Clem ... everybody has to have a hobby. Let them be, and let them make the game the best they can.
Spond! -mentally special- Max
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:51 am
by clem
told ya.
"If" magma was doing it within their own mod or for their own game to release it would be different.
Their "hobby" has farked with the community now since 1.4.
Finally, people other than myself have gotten tired of it. Will be interesting to see how it is handled as opposed to other times when people have shown 'differences of opinions' with what Magma, Inc. has decided is right for the once content myth community.
None of that is any attempt to cause troubles. I was just pointing out that the additions and changes are not something "commissioned" or "approved" by anyone officially associated with the game. Just a 'wish list' of changes from a bunch of myth mod makers who wrangled themselves into their current position.
The perception of what is 'good, warranted, and needed' by the people within magma and the perceptions of non-vocal people who used to and currently play the game 'could be' vastly different.
Could be.
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:00 pm
by qwerty2
why do you two always have to surface whenever there is a hint of a flame war? can't you go away or something?
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:40 pm
by ducky
I support magma and everything they're doing to the game in both feature additions and gameplay improvements/modifications.
Roughly speaking, I accept the new melee, for instance, over the old as an improvement. Gameplay should be intuitive; the more intuitive it is, the faster it is for new players to adapt and to play at our level. In my opinion, seeking out new players, and not rigidly catering to the old ones should be a driving force behind these updates (and to no small extent, I suspect that's the case).
In broad terms, this is my standard for supporting the work of projectmagma. It is very possible that in the very near future we shall see the birth of a version of myth immune to practically all if not all known bugs documented in its 4-year (5?) history. I opine that the result will be worth the wait.
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:05 pm
by Paranoir
Hey - I hear that 1.5 is bringing back CL and CK.... I can't wait for even more TFL "features" .....
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:09 pm
by Spond!Max
Fuck flaming. All I know is that almost nobody told the truth to anybody about anything during the time when it mattered most. People even lied to themselves. I'm not going to say who lied to whom, because to this day I still can't reconcile all the disparate shit I was told by both sides. As a result, the game is mostly f00ked. Nobody listens to the community, because nobody listens period. They are too damn busy --weeeee-- HAVING FUN??!??!? OMFG Magma enjoys making the game better??!?!
I don't care any more. I have no Myth CDs, and it's off of my hard drive. I just happened to stop by to see if this shit was still stirring. Like I said, let these guys have fun with what's left. All anyone is doing by digging into their sides is creating more bad karma, which we all know, will result in Bush getting re-elected. Damn idiot with his "fighting for peace". Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity. Bashing on Magma is equally as useless. I'll be on Halo on the weekends.
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:26 pm
by Paranoir
God forbid anyone actually like the game the way it was. And God even more forbid that you speak out when someone is changing something that you like.
In fact - god damn anyone for having an opinion at all! Right Spond!Max?
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:36 pm
by Spond!Max
No, you can have an opinion, but it's not going to do anyone any good to express it. That's all I'm saying. Like Jesus said "Saul, Saul, why persecutest me thou? It is useless for thee to kick against the goads". Magma will goad the community in whatever direction it pleases no matter what anyone says. Can you not see that from past events?
I'll leave this crap alone now. Made it what ... 5 months without a post? Maybe I can make it 6 next time.
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:38 pm
by Blades
sidenote: the web site is not emailing passwords still.......
Why is it that when anyone says "enough is enough" with the changes that it is somehow seen as a flame? I used to think a flame war was when you hurled personal insults and profanity at another person. Now if you simply disagree with a particular action or philosophy, it's a flame. Or when you make a prediction regarding a certain course of action - then it's a flame. So by contrast the only thing that isn't a flame is when you agree or say nothing.
And fixing usually means fixing. When you fix something that brings back chained lightening and control-click trow kicking - then this is not a good thing. If you move TFL code from the TFL app into Myth II, you can expect that you will have TFL bugs.
Of course, this will likely be seen as a flame - humorous.
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:45 pm
by clem
and... I point back to my first sentence in my first post in this thread which agrees with what spond just said even if his first post seemed otherwise.
"Sadly... you guys actually think Magma is going to stop their personal modifications to Myth?"
They're doing these changes as a hobby and because they will allow them to make a couple more cool coop maps for their fans which will be played for a month while they tease their fans with things about what's OMFG NEXT SOON MB FROM MAGMA!
If they were interested in fixing M2 it would have been fixed.
1.4 came out - magma response "Look at all the new abilities for mapmakers. Everyone loves it, but we'll fix bugs in 1.4.3, we promise"
1.4.3 came out - "Look at all the new abilities for mapmakers. Everyone loves it, but we'll fix bugs in 1.5 "if" we're allowed. Don't blame us."
1.5 beta comes out - "Look at all the new abilities for mapmakers. Everyone loves it, but we'll fix bugs from next beta's."
Nothing has changed in the approach here. Only thing that's changed is that there is no one else for them to blame for their bugs, additions, or lack of interest in what fans outside of their Hotline server actually think of anything.
:laugh: