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Is it still available for download somewhere? Thanks!

underhill wrote:Is it still available for download somewhere? Thanks!

I'll save you some bandwidth - the units are stellar; a benchmark against which all unit creators should measure themselves.

Mute the narration. And any ingame dialogue.

U mean :
It's super cool plugin while freedom 1 & 2 need some improvments (freedom was funny but... The internal formations and the pathfinding are fucked up and ruined all my fun, and also there is a map who can't be played in coop because it's always an OOS)

Enculator wrote:U mean :
It's super cool plugin while freedom 1 & 2 need some improvments (freedom was funny but... The internal formations and the pathfinding are fucked up and ruined all my fun, and also there is a map who can't be played in coop because it's always an OOS)

It's nice to be remembered.

No, I stand by what I said. In fact, I don't think I've ever gone on record as saying Freedom 1 or 2 were anything but 'sincere'. They weren't ever meant to be technically stellar, and since they were largely the work of myself (and a Cid on the side), I've never been too bothered by the less-than-great bits of it (of which there were many).

There's nothing super cool about 7th God, outside the units and some of the models.

*slides in*

Freedom can certainly be seen as "not our best work", let's say. Initially it was for a 5 year old, and then later we were just making it for ourselves. The aim was never to blast people away with fancy features or amazingly epic game play.

It was for a bit of fun! Our next project should be seen in a seriouser light, though.

-TGP-

William Wallet wrote: There's nothing super cool about 7th God, outside the units and some of the models.

"super cool" is obviously a personal, subjective opinion so there's no point in arguing one way or the other, but The 7th God - like it or not - is one of the most 'professional' style, well-designed high quality projects out there for Myth. e.g. It's not just "the units" or "some models" that are good. There are new units, with new physics, new voices, new sounds, new spells, etc - there are new models, there is new scenery, there is new music, there is new _everything_. It is on an order of magnitude and quality few other projects can touch. I would say Jinn, & Green Berets all are in that group - probably a few others I am regrettably overlooking. And others like WWII, Wild West, etc would be too except they weren't quite the total conversions like 7thGod,Jinn and GB.

Hey I never argued against the magnitude of new stuff. I questioned the quality of it.

One might argue that because I made two incredibly bad campaigns, that I am in no position to say 7th God is mediocre.
But I tell you, being a mapmaker of questionable virtue puts me in *perfect* position to comment thus! I've played a billion plugins, I know what sucks, I know the technically brilliant ability of Cydonian and his chums who made 7th God what it was. And in no way do I think we should kid ourselves that big chunks of it were not substandard.
You cite new sounds among the manifest 'new' things in 7th God - but I don't think there was a voice recording in that plugin that wasn't pretty iffy. Again - I can say that, because I *MADE* a campaign based on iffy recordings, I know of what I speak.

It was a miasma bereft of soul. It was unfun, detatched and ponderous. The talent of the team who made it *far* exceeded the end product. As a mapmaking achievement, I readily argue that it is unmatched (except for that level in Jinn that used model animations to go inside buildings... brilliant stuff). But that's not what is important to me - was this in fact a technical experiment, or storytelling?

They succeeded in making one of the most technically ambitious things ever released, but they failed to grab me story-wise, which is why I really don't see it in the same light as TFL.

I reiterate - I do not say these things in nastiness. The skill those dudes exhibited with 7th God is jaw-dropping, to create all that stuff is one heck of a task. But to me, it really is like a Myth Plugin made by Jerry Bruckheimer. They tried so hard to blow everyone away, they forgot the important things. And I can say this *because* I am a shit mapmaker, and I know the signs!

I just suggest u add some imrpovements to Freedom
Are the internal formation thing and pathfinding hard to fix ? Freedom is good , I remember this first level with a castle, that was a cool idea. But fix fix fix the pathfinding

Enculator wrote:I just suggest u add some imrpovements to Freedom
Are the internal formation thing and pathfinding hard to fix ? Freedom is good , I remember this first level with a castle, that was a cool idea. But fix fix fix the pathfinding

Haha. I did get carried away with the pathfinding.... I wanted to avoid troops clumping up unrealistically, but instead it just made things dodgy.

I made a patch back in February. Still haven't uploaded it, because I can't put things in Cid's HL folder.

William Wallet wrote:Hey I never argued against the magnitude of new stuff. I questioned the quality of it.

Not to beat a dead horse too badly, but you are kind of inconsistent with your critique. On the one hand you say you question the 'quality' of 7th god, and then you say "As a mapmaking achievement, I readily argue that it is unmatched..." and the only technical mapmaking component you have anything negative to say about is the voices but also say that "in no way do I think we should kid ourselves that big chunks of it were not substandard".

I personally find it hard to reconcile the unmatched mapmaking achievement statements and other sweeping compliments you make with your remark that big chunks of it were "substandard". I understand that your critique is really in the 'fun' category which is a little harder to quantify as 'fun' is a subjective value opinion - but your initial comments really seemed to paint the whole project with a wide brush of maximum suckitude.

I have similar (if less severe) feelings about the fun-quotient of the 7th god campaign - I didn't find it as captivating as a lot of maps/campaings (I found Creation's later - and final - release, 'Sisters of the Blade' to be much more captivating and fun) but imo there is still a lot of good about 7th god which I don't think your earlier comments really acknowledged. For me the new warlocks and the levels where you do battle on the elevated parapets were amazing - likewise the levels with the elves and wargs and trolls were great fun.

For me unless something was truly hideous or I really knew the person well enough to know what they like, I wouldn't tell someone not to download something - people have different tastes and there's just too few players playing too few 3rd party maps to discourage someone from trying something new.

I think it is worth the download. Does it have some levels that aren't that fun? Sure, but soulblighter also has some levels that aren't that fun to play. (Depends on the person of course). I find there are more fun/replayable reg levels than TSG levels. But that doesn't mean I don't play any TSG. It is also great for a little change up. IMO the most annoying part about TSG is that some of the levels are very hard on legendary, and getting a team good enough to win can be a challenge.

William Wallet wrote:They succeeded in making one of the most technically ambitious things ever released, but they failed to grab me story-wise, which is why I really don't see it in the same light as TFL.

I think this is debatable too. I found the Seventh God storytelling more compelling than that of any other campaign except TFL, including the other official games. I actually thought Soulblighter was a lot more disappointing in this regard.

"but also say that "in no way do I think we should kid ourselves that big chunks of it were not substandard"."

Oh yeah. Whoops - I apologise, I think I put a 'not' in there that didn't belong there.

"On the one hand you say you question the 'quality' of 7th god, and then you say "As a mapmaking achievement, I readily argue that it is unmatched...""

No that's not inconsistent. I was just skipping words again..... what I meant to say is that as a whole package - as something meant to entertain, it really wasn't that great. I was commenting on the mapmaking fanciness when I said it was unmatched, and yeah - to this day I'd say most of it has no real analogue.

"but your initial comments really seemed to paint the whole project with a wide brush of maximum suckitude."

Whoops - I was just trying to save time.

"For me the new warlocks and the levels where you do battle on the elevated parapets were amazing - likewise the levels with the elves and wargs and trolls were great fun."

No offense, but now it's YOU who is being inconsistent! Most of what you just said concerns units - which I readily conceded were in fact the best bit of 7th God.
And, in the past, I've cited the level with the elevated parapets as my absolute favourite model design ever..... so you may have picked a wrong example here of what I might have been 'dismissing'.

"I think this is debatable too. I found the Seventh God storytelling more compelling than that of any other campaign except TFL, including the other official games. I actually thought Soulblighter was a lot more disappointing in this regard."

It's.. like this. Soulblighter's story was an ugly beast, but it got the job done. In my opinion, there's very little likelihood they would make a 'sequel' based on a villain we thought we'd killed, that wouldn't be a little on-the-nose. But it was a decent enough thing (at least, earlier in the game. To me, victory seemed a little easy - "oh, by the way, we CAN beat the Myrkridia! Phew!")

Nah look.... the 7th God story just didn't grab me. It was ultimately too derivative, and it wasn't because I was eager to shit on fan-made plugins. I love 3rd party stuff, really. There were things I disliked about 7th God that I later found in Myth 3 (one of the dwarf levels was a straight ripoff of 7th God, I was sure).

But on the whole it was a little too derivative. Wasn't it based on a novel? If so, then I do not place sole blame on Creation for this. It'd be the fault of the author, right? So again - I'm really not levelling some unkind blunderbuss of criticism at a fellow mapmaker (or 10) - I just say I didn't like it all that much. To me that should be no more unfair than someone saying they 'did' like it all that much!

It was overhyped and didn't cough up in a couple of crucial areas. I still doff my cap to the greater parts of it.

William Wallet wrote:

"For me the new warlocks and the levels where you do battle on the elevated parapets were amazing - likewise the levels with the elves and wargs and trolls were great fun."

No offense, but now it's YOU who is being inconsistent! Most of what you just said concerns units - which I readily conceded were in fact the best bit of 7th God.

There's nothing inconsistent with me saying i really liked some of the levels that had new units because I never said anything negative about the units. And as for _you_ liking the new units I don't think it was clear to me that you liked actually _playing_ the new units - you did say they were 'stellar' but sometimes people rave about how new units _look_ without addressing the playability of them - and since you said you didn't find 7th god very fun to play I assumed that must include the new units since the 7th god is, after all - all new units. Not trying to pick nits here, just explaining my interpretation.

William Wallet wrote:And, in the past, I've cited the level with the elevated parapets as my absolute favourite model design ever..... so you may have picked a wrong example here of what I might have been 'dismissing'.

I wasn't picking an example of something you were dismissing, I was merely listing some of the stuff _I_ found fun in the 7th god.

William Wallet wrote:But on the whole it was a little too derivative. Wasn't it based on a novel?

I never heard that, what novel did you hear it was based on? I ask because given Creations fairly extensive and detailed credits in their readmes I'd be suprised if they based it on a novel and didn't mention it somewhere.

William Wallet wrote:It was overhyped and didn't cough up in a couple of crucial areas. I still doff my cap to the greater parts of it.

I am not a big fan of the hype that some mapmakers started using in the later days of the mill. I am sure it was just to get people's attention and get them to spend the time downloading when everyone didn't have cable modems or dsl so actually made choices about what to download but still, I don't like hype - imo it creates as much backlash as it does positive interest.