Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 4:17 pm
I would post this on PlayMyth where the topic is being discussed, but since the time Blades returned, my account no longer works there and nor does the auto-emailer send me replies when I've tried to have things fixed. I don't know if this is a technical glitch or intentional, but it doesn't really matter as I have little desire to participate in anything Blades runs. However, I would like to render my opinion on the following post by Clem regarding the Tain project.
Quote:
"The thing is Just because a mapmaker is not around does not make it ok to redistribute work without his approval. Assuming the author would say "sure no problem" is just easier.
If there is a possibility a mapmaker would not want his work posted than you have to err on the side of NOT doing it. Rather than deciding that it's the mapmakers problem to track it down and say "hey, take down my stuff please, you do not have approval".
If you do not have approval to use someones work you should not do so. There is no Public Domain issue at work here.
A Myth colormap is a creative work. It was produce by an artist and holds the same creative rights as a painting or drawing would. Bungie tools may have been used to construct the Tag, but the creative content within those tags belongs to the Author and no one holds the rights to redistribute that work without approval.
As stated before. If it "was" ok to redistribute, then Bungie & TakeTwo would NOT have gotten legal waivers from every map author who's work was included in Total Codex and MythWorlds.
It's an old arguement. One that was ignored and apparently no attention paid to.
Seeing as how no individual's I'm familiar with have heard anything from anyone with The Tain regarding approval I ass-u-me that they are proceeding with their current trend of "fuck anyone that doesn't agree with how we feel is legally or ethically correct".
Personally I think it's a hoot that it's taken them this long to create a site at all."
End Quote
There are some almost valid points here, but one thing that is being overlooked is it was the intention of the authors to distribute their work to the public. I'm sure it makes Clem feel more precious to assume that authors uploaded their maps for the sole reason of "ohhhh, the Mill!", but I think it is more reasonable to assume that in virtually every case, the authors only wanted their work to be available to the public. In fact, there were a lot of mapmakers who liked this service by the Mill, but hated the managers.
Of course it would be ideal to be polite and ask permission for each individual map, but given that such a task ranges from impractical to impossible, I don't believe that furthering an author's original intentions is the gross ethical violation that Clem suggests.
The hypocrisy here is that while Clem was in charge of the Mill, he allowed many maps to be uploaded by 3rd parties who were not the authors. Some of the people who did so stated in the descriptions that they couldn't find the authors or didn't even know who they were, yet apparently Clem's conscience wasn't bothered by this.
Either Clem's morals have changed since the Mill went down and he now feels the need to self-righteously force his new morals on others, or his hyperbole is just another example of his fixation on criticizing Project Magma to releave some bizarre self-esteem problem. Or... Clem can just plead ignorance that such practices took place at the Mill and claim he couldn't monitor every upload, but in that case, he should have payed as much attention to his administration and "ethical" obligations as he does in critisizing what Magma does. Afterall, I barely visited the Mill five or six times a year and I knew, so Clem shouldn't be able to claim to have not noticed what was plainly stated by the non-authors who were uploading.
As far as legal matters and comparing the Tain to Myth II Worlds, I think the difference lies in the fact that Myth II Worlds was sold for profit. Obviously, if Project Magma tried to sell the work of other authors without permission or compensation, we'd be in a whole different ballpark, but just as obviously, this is not the case.
Whether authors even have a legal right to demand their maps not be hosted by a website is a very gray area considering that by using the applications that created those maps, they essentially agreed to forfeit ownership. Take Two could most likely have published Myth Worlds to make thier profit without compensation to the authors, but wisely decided that would have been a very poor way of handling things.
At any rate, Project Magma has no intentions of keeping any maps hostage. If a legitimate author asks his map not be on the site, for any reason, it will be removed without question.
Contrast this to past behavior of the Mill. Some of you may remember the brief but ill conceived plan to turn the Mill into a paid subscripiton site for download users. Several mapmakers asked at this time to have their maps removed and were met with extreme hostility. Project Magma at that time had rougly a dozen TFL maps there, and very politely notified the Mill that they wished to decline having their maps hosted on any sort of site where people would have to pay to download them. As a result, Project Magma's account was immediately locked preventing our maps from being removed. Furthermore, we were unnecessarily flamed and one of our authors had his name childishly changed to "Some Moron" in the map description.
My conclusion to this matter is that poor Clem is upset that the community is going to be able to manage without his help. Pathetic.
Edited By ChrisP on 1083792346
Quote:
"The thing is Just because a mapmaker is not around does not make it ok to redistribute work without his approval. Assuming the author would say "sure no problem" is just easier.
If there is a possibility a mapmaker would not want his work posted than you have to err on the side of NOT doing it. Rather than deciding that it's the mapmakers problem to track it down and say "hey, take down my stuff please, you do not have approval".
If you do not have approval to use someones work you should not do so. There is no Public Domain issue at work here.
A Myth colormap is a creative work. It was produce by an artist and holds the same creative rights as a painting or drawing would. Bungie tools may have been used to construct the Tag, but the creative content within those tags belongs to the Author and no one holds the rights to redistribute that work without approval.
As stated before. If it "was" ok to redistribute, then Bungie & TakeTwo would NOT have gotten legal waivers from every map author who's work was included in Total Codex and MythWorlds.
It's an old arguement. One that was ignored and apparently no attention paid to.
Seeing as how no individual's I'm familiar with have heard anything from anyone with The Tain regarding approval I ass-u-me that they are proceeding with their current trend of "fuck anyone that doesn't agree with how we feel is legally or ethically correct".
Personally I think it's a hoot that it's taken them this long to create a site at all."
End Quote
There are some almost valid points here, but one thing that is being overlooked is it was the intention of the authors to distribute their work to the public. I'm sure it makes Clem feel more precious to assume that authors uploaded their maps for the sole reason of "ohhhh, the Mill!", but I think it is more reasonable to assume that in virtually every case, the authors only wanted their work to be available to the public. In fact, there were a lot of mapmakers who liked this service by the Mill, but hated the managers.
Of course it would be ideal to be polite and ask permission for each individual map, but given that such a task ranges from impractical to impossible, I don't believe that furthering an author's original intentions is the gross ethical violation that Clem suggests.
The hypocrisy here is that while Clem was in charge of the Mill, he allowed many maps to be uploaded by 3rd parties who were not the authors. Some of the people who did so stated in the descriptions that they couldn't find the authors or didn't even know who they were, yet apparently Clem's conscience wasn't bothered by this.
Either Clem's morals have changed since the Mill went down and he now feels the need to self-righteously force his new morals on others, or his hyperbole is just another example of his fixation on criticizing Project Magma to releave some bizarre self-esteem problem. Or... Clem can just plead ignorance that such practices took place at the Mill and claim he couldn't monitor every upload, but in that case, he should have payed as much attention to his administration and "ethical" obligations as he does in critisizing what Magma does. Afterall, I barely visited the Mill five or six times a year and I knew, so Clem shouldn't be able to claim to have not noticed what was plainly stated by the non-authors who were uploading.
As far as legal matters and comparing the Tain to Myth II Worlds, I think the difference lies in the fact that Myth II Worlds was sold for profit. Obviously, if Project Magma tried to sell the work of other authors without permission or compensation, we'd be in a whole different ballpark, but just as obviously, this is not the case.
Whether authors even have a legal right to demand their maps not be hosted by a website is a very gray area considering that by using the applications that created those maps, they essentially agreed to forfeit ownership. Take Two could most likely have published Myth Worlds to make thier profit without compensation to the authors, but wisely decided that would have been a very poor way of handling things.
At any rate, Project Magma has no intentions of keeping any maps hostage. If a legitimate author asks his map not be on the site, for any reason, it will be removed without question.
Contrast this to past behavior of the Mill. Some of you may remember the brief but ill conceived plan to turn the Mill into a paid subscripiton site for download users. Several mapmakers asked at this time to have their maps removed and were met with extreme hostility. Project Magma at that time had rougly a dozen TFL maps there, and very politely notified the Mill that they wished to decline having their maps hosted on any sort of site where people would have to pay to download them. As a result, Project Magma's account was immediately locked preventing our maps from being removed. Furthermore, we were unnecessarily flamed and one of our authors had his name childishly changed to "Some Moron" in the map description.
My conclusion to this matter is that poor Clem is upset that the community is going to be able to manage without his help. Pathetic.
Edited By ChrisP on 1083792346
) - If places like the Mill hadn't existed, I'm sure authors would have done anything they could to distribute their maps, ( I know i would have.) even if it meant emailing it like crazy.
