tain.totalcodex.net

seems easy/doable:
server as neutral observer can chat with team and yell. this could be turned on or off as a game option.

seems harder but doable:
artillery firing in a formation: imagine fire arrows going in a line when you click a # for formation instead of all targetting one area (with one click). this could be very useful on maps like cracks

plug and play plugins: you download, extract and myth recognizes it and lets you in without restarting the game. this would also have to stop causing machines to crash when you close myth as files are being copied into the folder made windows 7 blue screen for me!

seems very hard / impossible:
allow units to be allowed/disallowed on a map before a game.

this could eventually be turned into a full listing of units allowed and points allowed to spend. like, you could say disallow trow but let me have FGs instead on if i had a trow. you could choose #s etc and give the host power to be a mapmaker while he's hosting. this would change the way maps are made but could definitely have potential for game use! you could limit the # of points per map based on unit types (like a trow is 24 points so he counts as 24 unit points, not the same as trade points: you could trade in trow on the map for an 8 point mortar, 8 point lock, 3 point archer, 3 point soulless and 2 point myrmidon)


anyway, just ideas/suggestions if anybody has any interest!

dac wrote:seems easy/doable:
server as neutral observer can chat with team and yell. this could be turned on or off as a game option.

What purpose would it serve? What made you think of this?

dac wrote: seems harder but doable:
artillery firing in a formation: imagine fire arrows going in a line when you click a # for formation instead of all targetting one area (with one click). this could be very useful on maps like cracks

It'd be cool to be able to do this, but it would change how Myth is played big time.. I don't think that would be good. Maybe if it was an option limited to new meshes/units. Something you could set in a monster tag.

dac wrote: plug and play plugins: you download, extract and myth recognizes it and lets you in without restarting the game. this would also have to stop causing machines to crash when you close myth as files are being copied into the folder made windows 7 blue screen for me!

Plugins that could be loaded without Myth needing restarted would be quite nice.

dac wrote: seems very hard / impossible:
allow units to be allowed/disallowed on a map before a game.
this could eventually be turned into a full listing of units allowed and points allowed to spend. like, you could say disallow trow but let me have FGs instead on if i had a trow. you could choose #s etc and give the host power to be a mapmaker while he's hosting. this would change the way maps are made but could definitely have potential for game use! you could limit the # of points per map based on unit types (like a trow is 24 points so he counts as 24 unit points, not the same as trade points: you could trade in trow on the map for an 8 point mortar, 8 point lock, 3 point archer, 3 point soulless and 2 point myrmidon)

Seems a little over the top.. maybe instead make it so Hosts could set how many points are available for trading at beginning of the game. This would allow some.. interesting lineups.

i only begrudgingly respond to you as you have me on your wanklist for some reason. burn in hell.

Isolder wrote:dac wrote:
seems easy/doable:
server as neutral observer can chat with team and yell. this could be turned on or off as a game option.

What purpose would it serve? What made you think of this?

obviously you've never neutral hosted for somebody. you either have to join a team and have limited view or you have to stay silent, no talking even to people on your own team. it sucks. everybody hates that part of it. so give the option of doing it.

Isolder wrote:dac wrote:
seems harder but doable:
artillery firing in a formation: imagine fire arrows going in a line when you click a # for formation instead of all targetting one area (with one click). this could be very useful on maps like cracks

It'd be cool to be able to do this, but it would change how Myth is played big time.. I don't think that would be good. Maybe if it was an option limited to new meshes/units. Something you could set in a monster tag.

shift double click did the same thing. taunt interrupting whatever was going on did the same thing (at least it didnt do that in tfl). pathfinding improvements changed how the game was played and what you could and could not do to take advantage of situations. same shit, different stink.

Isolder wrote:dac wrote:
seems very hard / impossible:
allow units to be allowed/disallowed on a map before a game.
this could eventually be turned into a full listing of units allowed and points allowed to spend. like, you could say disallow trow but let me have FGs instead on if i had a trow. you could choose #s etc and give the host power to be a mapmaker while he's hosting. this would change the way maps are made but could definitely have potential for game use! you could limit the # of points per map based on unit types (like a trow is 24 points so he counts as 24 unit points, not the same as trade points: you could trade in trow on the map for an 8 point mortar, 8 point lock, 3 point archer, 3 point soulless and 2 point myrmidon)




Seems a little over the top.. maybe instead make it so Hosts could set how many points are available for trading at beginning of the game. This would allow some.. interesting lineups.

has to start somewhere if its going to happen at all. it could be interesting but the point balancing would probably make it impossible to implement with any practicality. you could i guess limit it by say ing you only get X number of unit diversity points for this map, with each unit costing X where X is the point cost of the unit in a normal trade. take the map gimble, you have warrs sks thrall arcs ghols jman. thats 2 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 6 = 17 trade points. you could turn that 17 into a warlock (8), mortar(8), thrall(1) or you could turn that 17 into myrkridia(4) mauls(4) zerks(3) soulless(3) wights(3). trow (24) would not be possible in this scenario. this is what im suggesting as a starting point, who knows where it could evolve like having trow on grave etc? leaving hte original # of unit points for unit tradingn where they are could be fun!

Edit:
ok i lied. i forgot duffs somehow (thats how mine usually die) so trow might be possible on gimble. either way, same process!

dac wrote:obviously you've never neutral hosted for somebody. you either have to join a team and have limited view or you have to stay silent, no talking even to people on your own team. it sucks. everybody hates that part of it. so give the option of doing it.

yeah well if you are a 'neutral observer' you aren't supposed to be interjecting anything into the game. if you could talk or yell you might intentionally or accidently say something about what's going on that one team wouldn't know because of their limited view. There is NO way a person hosting a game with omniscient power should be allowed to talk to 'his' team. It really sounds like what you are asking for is a 'cheat' - e.g. "I want to host this game for my team and I won't take any units, but I want the ability to see what's happening anywhere on the map AND I want the ability to talk to my team". that's not an 'impartial' observer, that's a 'host spy mode'.

I am sure THAT would never be abused.

Or did you mean something different?

As a mapmaker, if people could just start changing my unit sets will- nilly that would piss me off. Why even bother coming up with a well balanced unit set if every variant of my map will turn into peasant/myrkridia riot?

note to self: add a peasant/myrkridia riot mesh...

vinylrake wrote:

dac wrote:obviously you've never neutral hosted for somebody. you either have to join a team and have limited view or you have to stay silent, no talking even to people on your own team. it sucks. everybody hates that part of it. so give the option of doing it.

yeah well if you are a 'neutral observer' you aren't supposed to be interjecting anything into the game. if you could talk or yell you might intentionally or accidently say something about what's going on that one team wouldn't know because of their limited view. There is NO way a person hosting a game with omniscient power should be allowed to talk to 'his' team. It really sounds like what you are asking for is a 'cheat' - e.g. "I want to host this game for my team and I won't take any units, but I want the ability to see what's happening anywhere on the map AND I want the ability to talk to my team". that's not an 'impartial' observer, that's a 'host spy mode'.

I am sure THAT would never be abused.

Or did you mean something different?

Well, you can have multiple people being on the neutral observer team (i.e. people who join the host when the host is neutral observer). If the suggestion is for these players to be able to whisper amongst themselves, then VR's argument doesn't really apply.

However, I've not looked at how difficult it would be to make this work, since Neutral Observers don't show up under F7 and such, so Myth might not have "player data" for these players and may not be able to easily let them chat because of this.

thats why you would have the chance to disable that stuff VR. dont tell me that neutral hosts using vent couldnt do something similar? It could even be shut off, hell, why not make it so that neutral observers can only see one army then! that way vent is stopped. oh and make sure they all see the same army too, so you have to have a home army to prevent cheating in any way/shape/form.

the point is if you can see anything of course you can cheat, but being neutral with chat disabled takes away from commenting on the game as it happens. for example, you cant LOL at somebody who just got land wighted except by writing on that stupid minimap. being able to whisper to teammates should be allowed if not yelling, but disabling that should be the choice of the host.

in all honesty, in a 10 year old game, you probably dont have to worry about cheating like this happening, but for your sake it could be added as a game pregame option box just like UT, allies, teams and your personal favorite "deathmatch". if its not possible then such is life, but if it is, it should be explored because those of us who are smart enough to do port forwarding would appreciate being able to chat while providing the service of neutral hosting for somebody!

also i havent seen much input other than the unspoken one's response to other things i think could be cool like firing on an area rather than a specific location with certain artillery units. is that even possible?

oh and dm, im sure that the original fission scientists wernet too happy seeing hiroshima and nagasaki go off but we still get to power cities and warships using it! cant win em all and have everything perfect! again, give the host more power and give myth more diversity. im sure the default will be played 95% of the time becuase my guess is most people are too stupid to be able to do smart unit trades on the fly anyway (self included).

dac wrote: dont tell me that neutral hosts using vent couldnt do something similar?

Ridiculous argument. There's a huge difference between people figuring out ways outside of the game to cheat (hell, a neutral observer could be sitting in the same room with one team looking at his monitor - there's no way to stop that) and putting the ability to cheat INTO THE GAME ITSELF. I am sure you can understand the significance of the difference.

dac wrote:...but being neutral with chat disabled takes away from commenting on the game as it happens.

Yes, that's why it's called neutral OBSERVER, and not Neutral CHATTER or Neutral COMMENTATOR. I don't have any problem with neutral observers 'on the neutral observer 'team' talking amongst themselves', but I don't think 'neutral observers' should be able to comment to or communicate with the players by talking or yelling AS the game is in progress. That includes 'LOL's and the like. If you want to have a seperate 'Commentator' mode, that's fine, but that's NOT what a neutral observer is. Frankly I can't see any need for any of the options you've asked for neutral observers to have other than talk to each other. All the rest just subvert the entire concept of a neutral observer. Not saying they wouldn't be fun or people wouldn't use them, they are just anathema to the idea of a neutral observer.

dac wrote:in all honesty, in a 10 year old game, you probably dont have to worry about cheating like this happening, but for your sake it could be added as a game pregame option box just like UT, allies, teams and your personal favorite "deathmatch".

Thanks for the condescending attitude dac, but your arguments are ridiculous. Because the game is 10 years old you don't have to worry about cheating? You mean like how no one dummies in MWC or other tournaments anymore because the game is 10 years old? Or do you feel that neutral observer cheating is somehow inherently different than other forms of competitive cheating? Gimme a break, I really like to think you are smarter than this kind of comment, so if you aren't just trying to stir up shit (as you are wont to do) I don't understand why you are using such faulty logic in your arguments.

ps. Dissing 'deathmatch' was a nice touch. god forbid I like an occassional deathmatch game, better burn me at the stake because I like 3rd party plugins too - maybe send me to the PG BC & Raid school of Mytheducation. Oh and by the way? I've played Balls on Parade and actually liked it to. Once I even almost liked a game of Hunting.

oh my how things are interpreted on these forums!

allow me to show you how a condescending attitude looks:

i was using deathmatch alongside UT and teams in an obvious effort to subvert them all. teams? dude you could totally stack rosters if that was allowed, where's the fairness there? thats borderline cheating! i mean, after all why give the host the option to control such things in his or her own game? that would be like... giving mariusnet admins power to control things in the lobbies! DEAR GOD NO! THAT POWER COULD NEVER BE ABUSED EITHER!

okay, so back to cheating. if either player/team is worried about a neutral observer cheating, then they need to think about vent and/or cellphones and/or ask that the no chat box be checked (but really? i mean really?). god forbid the host be allowed to interact with any of the players in the game if he's hosting something neutral, hell he might even blurt something out! In fact, the host should be punished by incredible boredom and forced to not be allowed to interact with anybody in the game because he's clearly so stupid he might blurt something out, intentionally or not. you know what, as long as we're guarding mythers from accidently giving something away, lets turn off yelling in gaems in general because somebody on one team might yell something out that gives away strategy! we should also turn off dead bodies of enemies showing up to hide the pus #s and to hide footprints or trow stomping sounds; this could be used for unfair advantage to those people who know about these aspects of the game, or to those unfortunate souls who cannot afford a sound card.

lets also get rid of control click while we're at it, skill with that should never be a deciding factor in the games. give me a break.

if you wnt to rename the neutral observer to neutral host then so be it. when i host mwc matches where i dont participate i dont say anything, hell i even sat out a mwc match this week where i was hosting the game and went afk and said nothing even though i wanted to scream at my team. clearly i represent the average myther who would cheat in any given situation and abuse the powers he was given. shame on me for asking for such a thing.

hey lets also make it so you cant throw bottles with a dwarf if your own units are in range or explode a wight with the same circumstances, or ring of fire, or anything that could cause harm becuase stuff like that could also be used to cheat!

okay, i'll stop ranting now.

my point is that it could be an option in a game similar to allies, teams, ut, pt, etc where you can enable or disable the ability to chat. you might even go so far as to allow whispers to your own team and yelling to all members as two different options. i think it would be handy and it would make neutral hosting a lot less annoying. tbh if anybody demanded that hte box be checked in my neutral host they could go find somebody else to be bored out of their minds while waiting for the game to develop.

dac wrote: allow me to show you how a condescending attitude looks:

Thanks for illustrating my point so well.

You raise so many strawman arguments that have nothing to do with what I actually said, that I have to conclude you are either a complete idiot or are just raking the coals to see what shit you can stir up. Since I don't happen to think you are a compete idiot, I choose to believe that you are just playign to see what kind of reaction you can get. I don't have any interest in encouraging you so I'll bow out of your ridiculous argument now.

the idea that a host shouldnt be allowed to talk in game if he's neutral hosting for somebody is absurd. films would be saved, games would be replayed if they counted for anything special, etc. i think its a ridiculous argument that you're trying to make that neutral hosts should have to sit and not interact with anybody on any level while their machine is being whored out for the sake of a game.

please fill that logic with all the holes you want. if you're really stuck on letter of the word semantics then instead of saying neutral observer change the stupid label to neutral host. simple as that.

Nice pic, capital. That one's for my Myth scrapbook!

seems harder but doable:
artillery firing in a formation: imagine fire arrows going in a line when you click a # for formation instead of all targetting one area (with one click). this could be very useful on maps like cracks

I've already made archers that do this. I've used it to successfully trap a dwarf on flat ground in a perfect ring of fire and burn to death. The only difference between how it works now and how I think youre proposing it works is that you could "control click" any part of the ground and do it, wheres currently it is achieved by pressing T like a wight, at a predetermined point about 75% of their max fire distance away from the archer.

dac wrote:... i think its a ridiculous argument that you're trying to make that neutral hosts should have to sit and not interact with anybody on any level while their machine is being whored out for the sake of a game.

and there in lies the difference in our philosophy. Since you are so 'graciously' 'whoring out your machine' you feel it's an imposition on you that you aren't able to share your witty commentary and well placed 'LOL's with players in the game, while i don't think your commentary is at all necessary.

bottom line? make it an option, whatever, i really don't care, but your logic is still ridiculous. i really don't think magma should be expected to add features to the game just because you can't shut up for 10 minutes and watch a game without an audience to hear your commentary.