tain.totalcodex.net

I know, I know, lawsuit, Take2, franchise, blah blah blah.

But seriously, what is the worst-case that could possibly happen if we started releasing Myth for free full download?


Could anyone actually be sued for monetary value? (you sure?)

If not, what do we really have to lose? The three most likely scenarios (listed in order of likelihood) I could possibly see are:

1) putting it up for free download doesn't come close to generating the buzz needed to go viral. Take2 doesn't notice and nothing happens. But gamer traffic may see a trickle of increase.

2) Someone at Take2 does notice and sends it to their legal department which sends somebody a cease and desist letter, which basically is just an empty threat. Gamer traffic might see a slight uptick while the download is available, and the free Myth experiment ends (because the letter, though probably toothless, will be enough to confirm everyone's fears that Take2 would take notice).

3) Miraculously, advertising & promoting pays off, and attracts maybe a hundred new gamers. For the first time since, like, Bungie, more than two full games are active at any one point in time. Someone at Take2 figures out that this game belongs to them, and (presuming the worst, viz. they're idiots) decides to go the route of having all hosting sites/affiliates shut down. We'd lose whatever website hosted it, but at least Myth would have a renaissance.




Basically, it boils down to this:

Is it really, really, really not worth it to just bite the bullet and put it out for download? Like, is it really still an issue?



One more thing, if anyone did ever try to promote Myth, I'd say leave out all that crap about Bungie's first blah blah blah, and Take2 blah blah, and all that boring stuff, just to tell people that it's simply a really fun old game.

Who is this "we", whiteman? Why do you expect someone ELSE to take the legal risk?

If you think the worst case scenario is something you are comfortable with, and you have functioning copy of Myth II YOU could offer Myth II for free download anytime you want. It's illegal of course, as you know, but TECHNICALLY there's nothing stopping you. If you don't have your own website, webhosts are plentiful and cheap (as cheap as $5/month, you could even base a website off of dropbox or one of the other free online document storage sites. Read a couple articles on Search Engine Optimization to help you get your site high in search results when people search for "Myth 2" or "Soulblighter" and get people to link to your site and you are well on your way to being a high profile pirate. Of course _I_ don't recommend you do this, just saying that in general if you want something done, it's usually better to step up and just do it yourself, rather than wondering why other people ("they") don't do something and waiting for "THEM" to take action.

Ask yourself "If I really think this is such a good idea, and the risks are so low, why don't _I_ do this myself"?

The risks are higher for Magma than for some non-aligned person to do it on their own. Which I think has happened in the past. Players out there offer a pirated version to others outside of the magma and mnet forums. Still hasn't had much of an effect other to help some people who have lost their old copies.

I wouldn't worry about Take2 finding out. If anything, it would be some random person who tells them (or tells others) either because of the principle of the act or to do harm (to mess with) to whoever is allowing such a download from spreading.

Someone actually did tell a former host of the Magma site in an email that Magma was hosting a file with copyright files of a game. The host dropped magma and the site had to be moved because of that. Eventhough magma was not doing what that person claimed they were doing, it still had consequences.

you're referring, I think, to the spond max (or whoever)/magma feud, when magma used to be hosted by xtrooper's school? I thought the issue was hate speech, or whatever, and that the issue was that someone made too much noise and the host (again, a school or something?) just dropped it rather than get into it.

whatever it was, yeah, that is a concern. the question is whether it's worth the risk (we've never tried allowing a free version to be easily downloadable from a community hub (or hubs). if the experiment fails, again, exactly how much do we stand to lose?)


and i'm not interested in building my own server, community hub, and website from scratch for a long shot in the dark. especially when we (people who still give half a shit about being able to play Myth online) have all of these already in place.

although if I WAS in charge of hosting any of these things, then yeah, I would consider putting up a download. this isn't about being a "pirate," or doing whatever we want to do willy nilly. it's about what the legal liabilities actually are* (and not what they've been preached to be for several years now).


*- and to be honest, I don't think you actually know.

No, I meant this one, though your description is almost on the spot, so maybe it is the same one.

IIRC, A. If Magma got caught, they might be told to stop messing with the code even.

B. There are a few sites hosting copies of myth 2, if you google around a little.


I like the idea, but I dunno how good it is.

i have a reasonable familiarity with copyright law, which is what i am basing my comments on. the legality of who owns the myth 2 copyright is quite clear, there is no legal question at all as far as I am aware. i know people like to say Myth2 is 'abandonware', so Take2 doesn't 'really' own it anymore, but 'abandonware' is a slang term for an online concept not a legal one. as far as i know there is no legal precedent for a copyright falling into public domain just because the copyright owner didn't continue to develop or market the copyrighted material/source/application. i would be happy to be learn of some legal precedent or reason why the copyright isn't legally clearly solely owned by Take2, but i am not aware of any. if you know of any please let me know.

as for the liability/exposure? if sentences in mp3 copyright infringement cases are a reasonable template to extrapolate what kind of penalties/sentence someone hosting an illegal download site would be likely to be charged with: take2 would argue for actual monetary cost of lost sales per download (technically this would really be just cost of product when it was last available + inflation*years-since-product-was-available), plus any fines/penalty the US government levies for the crime (again it could be multiplied by the # of downloads), and finally any 'damages' the judge/jury feels Take2 would be owed (again probably calculated on a per download basis - or the # of downloads would at least be used as a multiplayer) oh and of course court costs - the defendant can be forced to pay

also, of course i have no idea what take2's reaction would be to the scenario you propose, neither do you - all we can do is conjecture.

as for not wanting set up the website, etc - all you need is one page with a download link, i told you how you can do it for free with minimal effort - that you brush the idea off completely sounds to me of you just wanting 'someone else' to do the work and take all the risk so you can have more people to play myth with. if you aren't willing to do any work or shoulder any of the risk, why should you get the benefit?

We had some pissed off user contact our host in the past claiming that the content of the files we host were not free to distribute. This is usually seen when the site displays a message asking the owner to contact the hosting service.

iirc I have only had to make that call about 6 times since 2004/5 to straighten it out. It doesn't have to be the owner of the int prop to make the call asking the host to take it down.

I agree with Vynl. Put your name on the account that hosts whatever you want to host. Don't volunteer someone else's wallet, life, time. Magma may not be a corp but many of us have our names tied up in things.

i'm not doing any of those things. and i'm not demanding anything. and who said i still want to play myth?


so, back to the point. when has anyone with any association whatsoever with Take2 ever contacted anyone at magma or Myth about ANYthing? I keep hearing blah blah blah 'illegal' blah blah blah 'copyright' blah blah presented as common sense reasons why Myth2 isn't provided for a free download. these aren't exactly well thought-out reasons, just poor excuses based on armchair legal expertise.

the real answer (which, by the way, vr hit the nail on the head) is we have no clue what would happen if we offered myth2 for free download. yeah, i said we have no idea.

we know what would happen if we murdered someone. we know (or could find out) what would happen if we made up numbers to get a higher tax refund. in this case, we probably can't even estimate with good certainty what the result will be.

but we can identify an immediate benefit (easy access for anyone to give it a try. if you think it's not hard to buy a copy of myth for $2 on ebay, tell me when the last time was that you bought a game for anything over a dollar (online, no less) just to see what it was like... especially one that was made 10 years ago).

so we have a clear possible benefit, and an uncertain risk of a possible downside. (sort of like the first time you ask a girl out)

Perhaps you don't know of any consequences for what you are suggesting but we have a better handle on it than you I guess. Here is some reading for you to pehaps understand that not only is the person(s) doing the illegal distribution of copyrighted material at risk, but so are the person(s) using the illegal(read: pirated) copy of the software irregardless of whether or not they paid for it.

Nice take on piracy and copyright law:
http://it.emory.edu/showdoc.cfm?docid=1652

Mumbo Jumbo sues Popcap for illegal distribution and fraud:
http://www.destructoid.com/mumbojumbo-s ... 1633.phtml

Nintendo sues Samsung over counterfeit distribution:
http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/legal- ... 967-1.html

Blizzard sues Alyson Reeves for running illegal server $88million awarded even though Reeves only made $3million from micro sales:
http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/08/1 ... warded-88M

Sony sues 100 people, including Mr Hotz, associated with the group for making games available illegally:
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z1KMKKisnH

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... nsole.html

Atari, Electronic Arts, and Vivendi Universal Games sue 321 Studios for illegal distribution.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/116539/g ... udios.html

Just a short google search brought enough articles to light of how companies handle illegal distribution.

In short:

Unauthorized Distribution = Illegal = Software Piracy = Legal Action

Unauthorized Downloading = illegal = Software Piracy = Legal Action

Both the distributor and the downloader are at risk for legal action.

Not knowing the consequences does not absolve you from legal action. Educate yourself.

ducky wrote:...the real answer (which, by the way, vr hit the nail on the head) is we have no clue what would happen if we offered myth2 for free download. yeah, i said we have no idea.

i said we have no idea what Take2's REACTION would be, but i think i clearly identified the HUGE RISK anyone going down this road would be opening up regarding the copyright ownership issue, offering the software for illegal download and i even gave an idea of what kind of legal liability / risk anyone offering the software would be undertaking. but go ahead and pretend copyright laws don't exist, or that companies don't actively protect their intellectual properties - even old properties. just don't expect other people to live in your delusional world.

if you think it's just such a great idea, and the risk is so low - again i ask - why not do it yourself? it wouldn't cost you anything, you don't need a website. until you step up and put your money where your mouth is, you are just blowing smoke about things you apparently don't want to be informed about and trying to get other people to take significant legal risks. no suprise people aren't falling overthemselves in a rush to agree with you.

Think of it as speeding. When people drive faster than the speed limit, they don't always know for sure if a cop will notice them. Driving only slightly faster might not get their attention compared to those driving the fastest, but both types are risking it. At the end of the day, only you can decide if you are willing to risk yourself to such trouble and risk whatever you might have to lose.

Only YOU can prevent forest fires!

Even better question, why isn't there a free myth-like clone?

Megaglest sure looks perty these days.

but no mac support, and it has that inane non-real-time-strategy 'resource building' crap.

(rant: imo resource building is appropriate in long-term strategy games, but having resource-building in 'real-time' strategy games all but erases the 'real-time-strategy' aspect, i mean you might have to react and fight in real-time, (battle isn't turn based), but since players are fighting with vastly different resources based on decisions they made several 'turns' ago, the battle is starting off weighted in favor of the better resource planner, not the person with better real-time battle skills. bleehhh...)

(megaglist does look purty though)