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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:05 am
by Phex
<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>"What is a Coop Tourney?"</span>,
most of you might ask now. It can be explained best by using the example of a background story. I will base the whole explanation on this background, but its possible to convert it to any other setting.
Imagine ancient Japan. The last loyal Daimyo (Generals) bravely defend their Tenno's (Emperor's) lands against rebels who devise a plot to overthrow the Tenno. But there is also a secret rivalry between the Daimyo themselves, because the Tenno is old, has no descendants and the time will come soon when the land will need a worthy successor.
This is the going-in position: Generals, that are dependent on on each other, but also have their own interests to bring through. And this is the idea behind the Coop Tourney.
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<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>The Tourney itself</span>
Every Player embodies one of the Daimyo and has control over an army. The Tenno and rebels are controlled by an ai. There is also a map of Japan devided into several regions (these regions are inspired by a real ancient map).
At the beginning, every Player has control over at least one region. The tourney is held in turns. A turn can take one day or two weeks, depending on how fast everybody reacts.
In every turn, each Player can decide what to do: Attack a nearby region, gain gold, recruit troops etc. (the precise rules have to be worked out yet). The rebels can also attack or retreat or get reinforcements. Orders are sent in via email.
When every Player and the rebels gave their orders, the effects are calculated and the battles can begin (look below for a more detailed description of battles). The outcome of a battle decides if the Players gain or loose gold, troops, region(s) or if they get experience points to learn new abilities for their Daimyo.
Then the next turn begins.
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<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>The Battles</span>
Every battle is fought between two parties: The followers of the Tenno (one or more Players) and the rebels. It is fought by playing a special Myth Solo Map. Every Player can control their own Daimyo (who gets stronger when he gains experience) and troops, the rebels are scripted enemies. It is not allowed to control units of other Players.
A new solo map is created for every battle (by an independent mapmaker basing on the given parameters) and has to be downloaded by every Player who participates (dl ~500 kB). The recording has to be saved and sent in. It requires a lot of fairness from every Player not to betray and play a map twice. An independent host might have to watch that every battle is done correctly.
The casualties, dmg and kills at the end of each battle decide which Player gains experience, loses troops etc.
There is a scripted possibility to retreat in every map. Units that can retreat are not counted as 'casualties'.
Optional: When the 'Daimyo Unit' dies in the battle, the Player loses all Regions and has to start again (he is simply dead).
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<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>The Winner</span>
The tourney ends when the rebels have been beaten. The Player with the most regions will become the new Tenno and wins the Tournament. If there should be more than one Player who controls the most regions, the Players can duel for the throne (ffa like).
If there should be a sequel to the tourney, all Players save their experience points and the Player who won can begin as Tenno with special abilities.
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<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Your Opinion</span>
I would really like to know that you think of this idea. I would volunteer to host or create maps and to work out the Tourney rules. Any other person who wants to help me is welcome.
About four to six Players are necessary to run this Tourney.
If you are interested, if you think this idea is stupid, if you have an idea to make this more interesting or if you just like the geisha - please give me some feedback.
Regards,
Phex
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:06 am
by A-Red
If this happens, count me in.
The only problem I can see is getting the maps made. To make this work well with multiple competitors, you would need lots of them. I have a couple of rather involved mapmaking projects going already, but I could possibly find time to script a couple as long as you don't want anything huge and fancy.
EDIT: on second thought, if I made maps for it I probably couldn't compete.
A-Red
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:09 am
by William Wallet
This is a seriously neat idea. Would that I wasn't so bogged in Work-For-The-Dole at the moment...
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:36 pm
by haravikk
You've obviously put a lot of effort into this idea, but it also embodies a LOT of work.
How about a nice simple and watered down version to start with:
Use Myth multiplayer games.
Simply take the Myth map and divide it into regions for which there are multiplayer maps (Drowned Kingdom top left, Trow being somewhere in the Trow area, Blizzard in the stair of grief etc, some third party maps will fit parts too).
Then have two teams of players, if a player from one team hits a player from another team, then you duke it out on the correct map (with equal players from each team as available). That decides who has control of the area.
Each player would have a 'piece' they can move, but losing a battle loses whichever piece you had in that area (while the enemy retains theirs).
That could be interesting. Or if you're intent to do it co-op then you could use solo maps, either from the campaign or third-party ones. The Fallen Levels and Myth 2 show off quite a range of places, and third party maps fill a few other areas.
The storyline wouldn't make any sense, but it's all for fun 
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:52 pm
by Phex
How about a nice simple and watered down version to start with:
Use Myth multiplayer games.
I thought about many different versions of this tourney, also about your 'classic'-variant. I even created a map for a Myth world:
Nevertheless there are two problems:
1) Imagine team A has one piece in region 1 and team B has two pieces in region 2. How will this effect the actual gameplay? It is not really possible to give team B the double amount of units because its not sure which team on the map will be which team of the tourney (you could achieve it with a unit trading trick, but its a great effort).
-cut-
While writing this I came up with a simple solution for this problem myself... 
The pieces determine how many 'victories' have to be made to conquer a region (like in risk!). In the example above team A would need two, team B only one victory to win the battle. When team A wins only once, team B loses one piece but wins the battle. Damn, why couldnt this idea come to me earlier...
2) There is no real ending condition. The battle could rage over and over if there are two teams, because usually every random team has weak and strong players. You could add risk-like winning conditions though (conquer Gower, Avernus and four other regions of your choice). But I played risk games that took more than two days (with breaks).
To sum it up, your modification could work at least as good as my version. On the other hand I really like the coop- and 'improve your unit'-concept. To diable the argument of too much work: the solo levels were planned to be very simple with a gameplay comparable to Willow Creek, Landing or Ambush. But your are also right when you say that starting with a more simple version could prevent misconceptions and complications and therefore at lot of useless work.
What do the others think?
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:14 pm
by Lothar
I like Haravikk's idea quite a lot. I had actually come up with a similar idea (to his) a long time ago, but that was long before I knew how to do stuff like that.
It keeps the same basic idea, with someone keeping up with some kind of map with army movements, but the rest of it would go like this:
Let's say you have a map with a keep, and the player controlling the keep has 2 "armies" on it (like Risk), and an attacker attacks with 1 army. The map would then have 3 teams on it:
1. Defender
2. Attacker
3. Referee/Host/Dungeon Master (whatever you like to call him)
Through scripting, teams could be selected in game in order to get around the randomness of team selection.
There would be no unit trading, but going back to what I said before, if the defender has 2 armies, and the attacker only has one, a scripting option could be added to give the team with 2 armies to get extra units, or it could just mean that the attacker has to win twice.
It would involve a lot of work either way, and I have a lot of ideas on how to make it work, and depending on how you decide to go forward, I volunteer to help with both mapping and being a host/dungeon master.
This is your project Phex, so whatever you decide I will be happy to go along with and help with whatever.
Feel free to ask me if you more details
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:24 am
by William Wallet
Harravik,
Using the Myth multi-player maps is a good idea - I think what is needed is to use both single and multiplayer meshes, if you were to do that. Dead of Winter and Stair of Grief could be in the same region - just strip down solo meshes and turn 'em into multiplayer ones. Then you've got heaps more maps to spread out across the Myth world.
This is seriously a neat idea though. I mean, however implemented (like Japan or just regular Myth, vs. or Co-op) it's great.
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:03 pm
by Zeph
The amount of units on the map you use to attack a region could represent the number of players that can play in the match.
Lets say you have 3 pawns in the Ermine and youre attacking madrigal plains that has only 1 pawn on it. There would be a 3v1 fight going in one of the mulitplayer map.
Like Risk, if it was lets say a 3v3, the loser would lose one unit and would then proceed to do a 3v2 then a 3v1 and eventually die.
Make it so we can't go over a certain number of pawns attacking at the same time, I believe its 3 in risk, make it 7 or 8 for myth.
Big cities can also add some bonus such as Madrigal plains letting one more player play for the defensive team. Rhi-Annon letting you trade for 1 additional trow. Defending the white falls let your team plays in the keep instead of the beach etc etc
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:20 am
by Phex
<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Summary</span>
After having a few discussions with people from this board I decided to base the first Tournament on haravikk's idea (2 Team Multiplayer, regular). If it should work I will think about a Coop, non-reg version with more possibilities.
To summarize the current setup: Its like Risk for 2 teams with the same amount of players. Both teams start with the same amount of regions. An owned region has "markers" on it, representing the strenth of the armies. The more markers, the stronger an army is.
In each turn, the markers can be moved to attack or defend a adjacent region. Battles are fought by playing a (team) multiplayer map. Every victory will destroy one of the enemy's markers. Conquering a region will give you reinforcement markers.
The Tournament ends when one team is totally eliminated, when a "mission" is accomplished or after a known number of turns.
<hr>
<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>The Battleground</span>
<table border="0"><tr><td>
</td> <td>I have updated the strategy map and reduced the amount of regions. As you can see below every region is connected to a map. This is the map being played when a battles takes place. If you found a better map for a region, please tell me. </td></tr></table>
<span style='font-family:Courier'>Regions Maps
01 Drowned Kingdom Drowned Kingdom (#72)
02 Free Cities of North (S) Landing at WF (#10)
03 Madrigal Plains (H) Gimble in the Wabe (#61)
04 Province (H) (S) Broken Path (#03)
05 Covenant Plains (H) (S) Gonen's Bridge (#06)
06 Plain of Scale (H) (S) Willow Creek (#01)
07 The Ermine (S) Ambush (#11)
08 Northern Cloudspine Clash (#66)
09 Central Cloudspine (S) Stair of Grief (#12)
10 Southern Cloudspine (S) Gate of Storms (#09)
11 Northern Island (H) I'll fall on yr Grave (#78)
12 Twelve Dunes (S) Repair Worldknot (#07)
13 Forest Heart (S) Relic (#18)
14 The Northern Barrier Desert (#76)
15 The Southern Barrier (S) Redemption (#15)
16 Ghol Lands Badlands (#64)
17 Dire Marsh (S) Graveyard (#02)
18 Northern Mountains Dead of Winter (#75)
19 Avernus Venice (#74)
20 Gower (S) Limbs,Heads&Craters (#21)
21 Dwarven Lands (S) Ibis Crown (#16)
22 Tandem Plains (H) Demise on the Plains (#62)
23 Island Fort (H) Dead Man's Chest (#68)
24 Rhi'Anon (H) (S) The Baron (#05)</span>
Legend
(#) The Fear&Loathing mesh number.
(H) Harbour. You can travel between Harbours.
(S) The Map was a solo Map.
There will be two teams on every map. An Attacker (A) and a Defender (D). A Game Master (GM) doesn't seem to be necessary at the moment and would be a great increase of work. An invisible host is sufficient.
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<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Two Quesions are left</span>
1) Do you prefer a light vs. dark tournament, meaning that one team is "Evil" and one team is "Good" (with different units for each team and a bit more work for developers) - or are "mixed" teams better (a few light, a few dark units)?
2) Who is definitely interested in a) participating and b) helping me? You can also do both since the maps are not coops anymore.
*PLEASE DO NOT FORGET TO TELL ME YOUR EMAIL ADRESS IF YOU ARE AN UNREGISTERED GUEST! I HAVE NO CHANCE TO CONTACT YOU OTHERWISE!
<span style='font-family:Courier'>Participant Developer
01 (mysterio)* 01 Lothar
02 (The Shade)* 02 (empty)
03 Brainbug 03 (empty)
04 (empty)
05 (empty)
06 (empty)
07 (empty)
08 (empty)</span>
<strike>I will update this list.</strike>
List moved here.
Regards,
Phex
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:34 pm
by Lothar
Happy to be a developer, if you will have me.
I had already been messing around with some scripting on a multi map with a very unique effect, but I see that it won't be neccessary now. Awww 
. Heheh j/k. Less trouble is always better.
Here is a question for you: Will White Falls's cannons be active (uncontrollable/automated) or just nonexistant?
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:42 pm
by mysterio
I like this phex i will be in no matter how it works.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:52 am
by Phex
Lothar wrote:Here is a question for you: Will White Falls's cannons be active (uncontrollable/automated) or just nonexistant?
The only condition for every map is that there have to be two teams on it, one in an attacking, one in a defending position. Futhermore, both teams should have a real chance to win.
Scripting or special units, like cannons in White Falls, is a nice idea. Do everything you like on every map. No limits for your creativity. 
The more imaginative, the better!
I didnt think about the gametypes yet, but all maps should have the same gametype(s) (and the attacker can decide which one will be played). Any ideas for good gametypes?
mysterio wrote:I like this phex i will be in no matter how it works.
Dont forget to tell me your email adress! You cant particiapte if you dont do it, since I cant contact you if you are not a member of this forum!
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:23 am
by Baron LeDant
You could have obvious gametypes like assassin, where the enemy shade/trow/avatara has to be eliminated to win.
Could have last man on the hill work as well, like you have to have raised your banner to signal reinforcements and then have a horde of melee run in at the end would be a nice touch.
Generally I'd say to avoid using forts and such, it works in sigle player cause AI doesn't make use of ramparts as a human player would.
Personally I had a slightly differing idea for a coop sort of tourney.
I'd have used LvsD and used a risk style board of the myth world. Having 3-4 players on each team (light or dark) and having to alternate between players for each game (1v1 games or 2v2 i think). Basically you have a LvsD map to represent each region and whoever holds the most at the end triumphs.
Or something like that...
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:34 am
by William Wallet
I agree, except what you said about forts. It's the human element and added difficulty that makes forts worth using!
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:00 pm
by Lothar
::Transforms into Columbo::
"Just one more question…"
Got everything up to this point:
2 teams, possibly a special/hero unit using assassin gameplay, possibly just normal battles with different game types, everyone has a real chance at winning, Mb some cool multiplayer scripting…
Ok, my question: How will having more than one "piece" on a certain area be handled? Or will it be limited to 1 piece for square?
