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Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:04 am
by Tireces
I have played Myth 3 again lately and storyline seems 2 be quite good...
but... 
- Why Trow fight for Moagim
- Who the hell is Moagim ( if he cant be The Leveler or Tireces )
-Why Mazzarin is alive
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:11 am
by :) Da Cid (: McCl
I can't answer the first question.
I thought he was Tireces.
Mazzarin looks pretty dead to me, what with living in a tomb and floating around.
-TGP-
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:16 am
by William Wallet
"- Why Trow fight for Moagim"
I can't be sure of this wone. The only possible motive is perhaps a wish to avoid being taken on by the Myrkridia. I reckon the Trow would win a conflict against the 'krids but it'd be wasteful as fuck!
"- Who the hell is Moagim ( if he cant be The Leveler or Tireces )"
Notta clue. I still subscribe to the idea that Tireces = Moagim, and that the technicality of the Leveler's identity was simply lost to time - indeed, maybe they just simply didn't know until the Journeyman in the M3 cutscene went down there and did some reading.
In fact that makes the most sense to me. It's incredibly sloppy from a storytelling point of view to say 'well maybe the characters just didn't KNOW at this point!' but unfortunately there is logic to it.
The *actual* explanation for Mjarin being the Leveller is that Mumbo Jumbo needed a twist, and the story probably didn't have one yet.
"-Why Mazzarin is alive"
He's not. He's a Shade.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:01 am
by Tireces
William Wallet wrote:"- Why Trow fight for Moagim"
I can't be sure of this wone. The only possible motive is perhaps a wish to avoid being taken on by the Myrkridia. I reckon the Trow would win a conflict against the 'krids but it'd be wasteful as fuck!
Yea Trow would probably win easily. But they fight for Moagim even after Connacht traped M's in the Tain.
In TFL Trow fight 4 Balor but we know why.
Dark Age - Tireces = Tireces :;):
Age of Reason - Moagim = Tireces body + spirit of Leveller
Wind Age - Moaagim Reborn = Tireces Body + ????
The Watcher killed Mazzarin during Wind Age. But is Mazz Watchers minion or not?
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:03 am
by A-Red
Mazz does appear to be a shade in M3, but he isn't The Watcher's minion. This seems kind of silly...I can just see it now...
The Watcher: There, I've killed him at last!
Trow General: Yes, my Lord, well done! Now what do we do with him?
The Watcher: Meh. Whatevs.
[they leave. Herons come and cart Mazz's body off to a tomb]
[2 hours later...]
The Watcher: Wait a minute! I forgot to make him into a Shade! D'oh!
Also, maybe someone can posit an explanation as to why, if Damas was a Heron Guard and therefore immortal, he felt the need to rip off his face in order to "prolong his life indefinitely."
Good job, Mumbo Jumbo.
A-Red
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:33 am
by Doromas
It could be that mazzarin was too powerfull and as Watcher tried to raise him as shade he didnt got control over him.
though werent in TFL a shade called mazzarin?
hm, yeah that mazzarin thing in M3 is one of the most confusing things i guess.
to that Tireces thing, i guess leveller simply reanimated Tireces body, if that is possible since he got burned or something, got Tireces spirit and bound him to his will. He also could use some random spirit, shouldnt be too hard for dead-reanimating and non-dieable peeps.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:11 pm
by Lugas
I'll give my opinion about the Myth 3 Storyline:
Why Trow fight for Moagim
The Trow fight for The Leveler or Mjarin might have made them fight for Moagim. This explains why we think that Moagim was the Leveler in M3.
Who the hell is Moagim
Moagim is an incarnation of The Leveler. If you don't like non-Bungie Myth 3, Moagim was officially The Leveler. If you do like Myth 3, Moagim was something very evil before The Wind Age and Mjarin The Leveler ressurected him and made him his pawn. Mjarin was The Leveler in Myth 3. But the end of SB says that Moagim was an incarnation of The Leveler before Balor.
Why Mazzarin is alive
Mazzarin is certainly dead. The Crypt of Mazzarin probably held his ghost. The Watcher ressurected him as a Shade in the Great War.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:57 pm
by Graydon
A-Red wrote:Also, maybe someone can posit an explanation as to why, if Damas was a Heron Guard and therefore immortal, he felt the need to rip off his face in order to "prolong his life indefinitely."
Maybe cause he fled into the desert and couldnt find any mandrake plants...
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 2:34 pm
by Pyro
Lugas wrote:
The Trow fight for The Leveler or Mjarin might have made them fight for Moagim. This explains why we think that Moagim was the Leveler in M3.
I don't even know what you meant there.
Moagim is an incarnation of The Leveler. If you don't like non-Bungie Myth 3, Moagim was officially The Leveler. If you do like Myth 3, Moagim was something very evil before The Wind Age and Mjarin The Leveler ressurected him and made him his pawn. Mjarin was The Leveler in Myth 3. But the end of SB says that Moagim was an incarnation of The Leveler before Balor.
Without Myth3 or with it... Moagim was still The Leveler at one point... but in Myth 3 Moagim Reborn wasn't.
Mazzarin is certainly dead. The Crypt of Mazzarin probably held his ghost. The Watcher ressurected him as a Shade in the Great War.
Yes Mazzarin is dead for sure. But I agree that MumboJumbo messed this part up... Mazzarin the Shade not with The Watcher is just silly. Either he was turned into a Shade long after being dead... or somewhat soon.... but either way he should obey The Watcher in his shade form.
And about Damas being a Heron Guard... maybe Heron Guard aren't immortal... just live way longer... so it seems immortal. Or perhaps Soulblighter's ritual didn't just grant immortality but power that he sure didn't have before.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:28 pm
by A-Red
Pyro wrote:And about Damas being a Heron Guard... maybe Heron Guard aren't immortal... just live way longer... so it seems immortal.
Or perhaps Soulblighter's ritual didn't just grant immortality but power that he sure didn't have before.
"Some say he is Damas, one of Connacht's lieutenants who, while campaigning in the East, discovered a way to prolong his life indefinitely by means of ritual self-mutilation."
--Soulblighter flavor, TFL
So the primary, if not the only purpose of the ritual seems to have been immortality.
"...upon being reborn as a member of the deathless Heron Guard"
--Journeyman flavor, SB
"“Their healing ritual has its roots in the initiation rites of the Heron Guard, but what brings about immortality in a truly exceptional person merely restores the vitality of lesser men.â€
--Journeyman flavor, SB
They sound pretty immortal. I don't think Bungie was just pulling a fast one on us.
A-Red
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:54 pm
by Viktor
On that last comment, about the Heron guard- I also have always perceived "deathless" in a metaphorical way- that their order will always live on, and that they live for a very long time, but will eventually die. If someone was truely immune from death of natural causes, I think it would be very difficult to convince them to put their life on the line in battle.
Seriously, if they were immortal, herons should really be a better unit- i mean, myrkridia own them.
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:18 pm
by Floyd is Pink
i very much agree with viktor on the fact that herons (and journeymen) should be a better unit.
but about damas being a heron, not that i liked how mumbo jumbo made him a heron guard captain in m3, maybe he had to do his face pulling ritual because he betrayed the heron order? or became unqualified and became a 'lesser man', and wanted immortality so went and ripped his face off?
but aside from all this i think we can all agree bungie makes some awesome unique names: Moagim, Mazzarin, Tireces, Rabican and so on unless they ripped those from black company too
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:30 pm
by :) Da Cid (: McCl
Actually, the fact that the Trow fight for Mjarin is even further questioned by this:
And even though we recognized that he (Balor) wore the mantle of the Leveler, we owed him our existence, so we became allies.
-Tales From Myth TFL
So either the Trow had to repay an old debt, or Mjarin just used magic to pursuade the Trow. Obviously they don't like the Leveler.
-TGP-
Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:38 pm
by William Wallet
I'm missing something. "Fighting for Mjarin" entails that the Trow knew something we didn't. Can they somehow tell who is the 'real' Leveller, when everyone else thought it had been Moagim? Hmmm!
Heron Guard - I do not take their 'immortality' literally at all. The amount of stupid journeymen I've seen dying like bitches.... it's just bunk.
Nine Skull = looks really old. "Ancient, even by Heron standards". What's the point of being immortal if you're going to age?
I reckon they just get really old. I always figured Damas wanted a kind of immortality where he could circumvent that kind of aging, and that such pursuits were bad taste to the Heron Guard. So that's why he quit them - to go and get what he wanted.
Of course, I don't know if I'd trade my *nose* for that kind of immortality and power, but hey! Each to his own.
As for Mazzarin, there's every possibility the Watcher made him into a Shade, then discovered he just wasn't as powerful anymore, and locked him up. I'm not sure why he'd be let out again in TFL; perhaps they needed every Shade they could get? Who knows.
Maybe Mazz was locked away by Bahl'al as a sort of grudge thing, and the memory of their legendary battle would've still been comparitively fresh in M3.
Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:40 pm
by Doromas
hm, maybe they started to dislike leveller after they got pwned by connacht, when they wouldnt fought for him they wouldnt got prisoned for thousand years or something. so my guess goes to "um we got our butts kicked cause of him, we hatez him now!"
though, i think its simply cause mumbo jumbo wanted people to have trow as enemys and said "they fight for the leveller because we say. end of story." (i want to note that i havent played M3 for ages and cant really remember everything)
about the herons, well i just take it literally now in response to one above me, if they are really immortal, and still sacrifice themselves for the sake of others, wow i mean they would be very powerfull than. Such wise people who have such deep love, compassion and devotion for their "lesser" fellow humans should be > all.
but my guess goes to -> no they arent what i just described...