I used to like Apple. - Now I don't. Observe!

[William Wallet]

Right, here's the scoop. I've just put OSX 10.4 on Cid's computer. I WANT IT OFF, and I say with no reservation that when he sees how crap it is, he'll want it off too.

The Finder is full of crap now, I open a window and it's got this stupid bar down the side. Sure maybe I can switch it off, but I shouldn't HAVE TO.

I installed 10.4 so I could get a superior version of StuffIt to work - now I've done it I really regret it. I should have listened to Brian May. He TOLD me that 10.4 would suck, but I didn't listen. Now I'm paying for it.

Apple have done very little in the past few years to endear themselves to me. They sold me a dodgy computer with a known technical error that makes it switch off and flicker all the time.
And every update of OSX has followed a grim pattern. It is fucking huge, does very little, changes all the stuff you liked about it in the first place - and for some reason, doesn't replace the OS before it, it just adds. So now I'm down 3GB? For what?? Why didn't it just replace the old one? Now to make room for this useless OS I may or may not be able to get rid of, I've got to trash *my* stuff, *Cid's* stuff... but not Apple's stuff?
LUDICROUS. I owe Steve Jobs one mother-of-a-kick in the shins.

To the point I guess... is there any way I can just wipe out OSX completely? I mean - keep the Users folder because our stuff is in it... but otherwise, just BOMB that half of the computer, leaving it OS9ish for the moment?

Okay I'm not making sense. Here's what I want to do:
*Return to 10.2.8.
*Get rid of as much of Apple's ridiculous update as possible and get that 3GB back.
*Invent a time machine to convince myself to just BUY No One Lives Forever instead of getting it in a new .sit format.
*Use said machine to convince myself 10.4 is not worth anything.

God. I used to know a great little company called Apple. To my left is an LC630 - ten years old, still functions to my level of satisfaction. To my right and directly in front of me, two iMacs that have caused more than their share of trouble.
Now one of them has an OS that looks uglier, plays uglier; it's a parody of what Apple should be! SCREW STEVE JOBS.

[haravikk]

Archive and install using whichever OS install disk you prefer. It shunts the old stuff out the way so you can trash it, make sure to move across anything that you put in obscure folders or such.

However, your only main gripe seems to be the side-bar in the Finder, I actually use that all the time. It's one of the few improvements to the Finder that Apple have made. It was made during Panther though, not Tiger.

You should look at some of the features that have been added in like Exposé, which I also use all the time, even though I have two monitors.
It also performs better, I'm assuming you have G3 iMacs? I have one downstairs with Tiger on it and it runs better than when it had Panther, still a little sluggish overall but it was never really suited for OS X anyway.

[CIK]

I would encourage you to either stick with 10.4 or downgrade to 10.3. Because anything we may do(not saying we will do anything) from here on out will require 10.3 as a minimum OS requirement. There will be one more build of the 1.5.x series some time soon and then we will be dumping backwards compatibility.

That said I do find some of the new stuff in 10.4 annoying. My biggest grip is with Spotlight. For how I work it is just a useless feature and I'd rather have the old Find feature back any day. But I can see for some people(who store their files in random locations) it could be a useful feature.

I'd suggest doing a new install of 10.4 using the archive & install feature to slim down the system folder.

[William Wallet]

Heh... looking at things, it's going to be a *heck* of a bitch reverting this thing and as long as most things still work I guess the final decision is Cid's. (His iMac, see).

But I'm absolutely livid with some of the crazy-arsed things this has done... you know it *actually* went to the trouble of replacing my installation of QuickTime Pro with a shitty version of normal Quicktime? And now it wants me to buy Pro again? WHAT THE HELL.

Until I see some sort of sign that shows me my money is going towards something of the standard I'm used to from Apple, they're not getting another red bloody cent from me. I should think Jobs' pockets are sufficiently lined, he'll never have to worry about things falling out of his pants during those oft repeated 'Keynote Addresses'.

(What the hell does that mean anyway, 'keynote address', or 'keynote speech'...).

Thanks for the advice though!

"But I can see for some people(who store their files in random locations) it could be a useful feature."

Hehe, I'm not sure who exactly would want to store things in random locations... maybe it adds spice to life. "I never know where I'm going to find that text file, it could be in the Documents folder, it could be anywhere...".

[The Elfoid]

I'm on X.3.5 and it is a hell of a lot better than our previous (archaic 9.1), and my grandad's been able to use X.4. At 79, learning to use any computer would be a challenge, but he picked it up faster than my mother did OSX.3.5.

[Archer]

Right, here's the scoop. I've just put OSX 10.4 on Cid's computer. I WANT IT OFF, and I say with no reservation that when he sees how crap it is, he'll want it off too.

Rrright. Let's go through this.

The Finder is full of crap now, I open a window and it's got this stupid bar down the side. Sure maybe I can switch it off, but I shouldn't HAVE TO.

That was 10.3, not 10.4.

Apple have done very little in the past few years to endear themselves to me. They sold me a dodgy computer with a known technical error that makes it switch off and flicker all the time.

Which computer/error? If it's one of the mezzanine board issues, that's an issue with the capacitor manufacturer.

And every update of OSX has followed a grim pattern. It is fucking huge, does very little, changes all the stuff you liked about it in the first place - and for some reason, doesn't replace the OS before it, it just adds. So now I'm down 3GB? For what?? Why didn't it just replace the old one? Now to make room for this useless OS I may or may not be able to get rid of, I've got to trash *my* stuff, *Cid's* stuff... but not Apple's stuff?
LUDICROUS. I owe Steve Jobs one mother-of-a-kick in the shins.

It does replace the old one unless you do an archive and install. If you do, it doesn't replace the old one but it shunts it off into its own little folder for you to review and, if you so choose, delete. Default is an upgrade install, in which it does replace the old OS.

Also, a large amount of that space is likely printer drivers (the price we pay for "it just works"). If you want to/need to, you can dig into /Library/Printers and trash anything but PPDs/PPD Plugins and the brand of printer you have.

To the point I guess... is there any way I can just wipe out OSX completely? I mean - keep the Users folder because our stuff is in it... but otherwise, just BOMB that half of the computer, leaving it OS9ish for the moment?

Yes. Boot in OS 9, then delete /System and /Library. IMO you'd be a fool to do it, but that's your call.

(Strictly speaking to get rid of all of OS X you'll have to nuke the kernel, which is more trouble than it is worth because the kernel itself is tiny, and erase all the fiddly little Unix directories if you have the BSD subsystem installed (/usr , /bin , etc.), but you'll meet continually diminishing returns there. The meaningful portions of OS X are in /System and /Library.)

Okay I'm not making sense. Here's what I want to do:
*Return to 10.2.8.

Bad idea.

*Get rid of as much of Apple's ridiculous update as possible and get that 3GB back.

If you did an archive and install, nuke the "Previous Systems" folder. Otherwise, see above.

*Invent a time machine to convince myself to just BUY No One Lives Forever instead of getting it in a new .sit format.

Can't help you there.

*Use said machine to convince myself 10.4 is not worth anything.

There are all kinds of ways to convince yourself of blatant falsehoods, but I can't help you there either.

~J

[William Wallet]

"Rrright. Let's go through this."

Yay! It was fun enough the first time!

"That was 10.3, not 10.4."

Forgive me, my head wasn't firmly up Steve Jobs' arse when that update came out, so consequently I missed it completely. My bad!

"Which computer/error? If it's one of the mezzanine board issues, that's an issue with the capacitor manufacturer."

Well I don't see their frickin' logo on the front. I say Apple's culpable and so does Black Murtaugh, Steinschulz and Mortelli and everyone else at the firm.

"It does replace the old one unless you do an archive and install. If you do, it doesn't replace the old one but it shunts it off into its own little folder for you to review and, if you so choose, delete. Default is an upgrade install, in which it does replace the old OS.
Also, a large amount of that space is likely printer drivers (the price we pay for "it just works"). If you want to/need to, you can dig into /Library/Printers and trash anything but PPDs/PPD Plugins and the brand of printer you have."

Yes this is all sensible, but it didn't give me the choice. It was literally one button (labelled 'install' or 'begin' or something futuristic like that) and then off to 10.4-land. If it had given me the option to do something like that, don't you think I might have done it?
Of course you don't.

"Yes. Boot in OS 9, then delete /System and /Library. IMO you'd be a fool to do it, but that's your call."

THEY SAID THE WRIGHT BROTHERS WERE FOOLS. The aviation industry owes nothing to those naysayers.
Look, OS9 served me very well for many years - in the words of Freddie "I'm no Fool".
And yeah it is my call! That reminds me of that bit of Armageddon where Bruce Willis is arguing with that guy and they repeatedly go 'it's not my call' and 'you'd better make it your call'. That was the 2nd worst movie I've seen in a while. (The gong goes to Pearl Harbour).

"Bad idea."

See again, I'm not sure I follow you. 10.2.8 was good enough before, why does it suck now? I just want things normal again!

"Can't help you there."

Patently obvious.

"There are all kinds of ways to convince yourself of blatant falsehoods, but I can't help you there either."

You seem to have weaved yourself a mighty teacosie of ignorance right there - are you *sure* you can't help me??

[haravikk]

IMO 10.4 is mainly a developer release, however if you've looked at some of the stuff it allows developers to do, then you'll see why upgrading is a good idea.
Not to mention (and I can never stress this enough) it runs faster than 10.3, which ran faster than 10.2. Spotlight makes searching much quicker if you use it, but you really should change the "Quick search" hot-key to something other than Command-Space which I hit all the time by accident.

Going back to OS 9 might be a good idea on older machines (like 400Mhz G3 iMac or slower), but only if you intend to get a new machine (like one of those cute Mac Minis, nab one of them and a $60 monitor and you're set).



Edited By haravikk on 1134490730

[TarousZars]

The Finder is full of crap now, I open a window and it's got this stupid bar down the side. Sure maybe I can switch it off, but I shouldn't HAVE TO.

In the top right hand corner of every finder window is a ovalish white button. Click that and your back to OS9 Style windows. I for one like the sidebar, even if I hate the Brushed Metal interface, but to every man his own eh?

[Graydon]

That side bar is one of the things I love about 10.3/4. The functionality of being able to add quick buttons to folders you use often (like 'Myth 2', or 'Mapmaking' in my case) are really quite nice to have absolutely everywhere. Also the ability to have quick buttons on the tops of all finder windows for applications I use often... ResEdit, Amber, UnTag, HeadEdit etc etc, is also a great key feature.

I could not go back to things without expose. It saves SO MUCH FREAKING TIME OMFG. If you like rifling through stacked windows, so be it, but I sure as hell dont. Expose is great.

Ultimately it's each to his own, and very simple people will like the slower, more sluggish, but original interface they learned on, like os9.

I like to be up to date, and enjoy features that enhance my ability to do things effeciently. 10.4 does that for me.

(Then again, I'm on a 1.25 ghz G4. I wouldnt even think of trying to install 10.4 on my 233 imac. It has enough issues running 10.2.1)



Edited By Graydon on 1134509968

[Archer]

"Which computer/error? If it's one of the mezzanine board issues, that's an issue with the capacitor manufacturer."

Well I don't see their frickin' logo on the front. I say Apple's culpable and so does Black Murtaugh, Steinschulz and Mortelli and everyone else at the firm.

That's great. That doesn't mean they could reasonably control the issue.

Yes this is all sensible, but it didn't give me the choice. It was literally one button (labelled 'install' or 'begin' or something futuristic like that) and then off to 10.4-land. If it had given me the option to do something like that, don't you think I might have done it?
Of course you don't.

I don't, since you apparently didn't. During the install process, on the screen immediately after choosing the disk to install to, there is a button toward the left of the window to select amongst the installation options. If you rerun the installation now (assuming you've updated the system) the installer will require you to click that button, as it will (properly) refuse to install-in-place on a more up-to-date system.

You'll excuse me if I doubt your claim that it isn't there, as I have installed OS X upwards of fifty times (once per major revision on five general-use computers and a few external emergency boot drives, god-knows-how-many times on the computer I install the developer betas on) and it has, through all versions and betas that I can remember, always been there.

See again, I'm not sure I follow you. 10.2.8 was good enough before, why does it suck now? I just want things normal again!

And System 6 was good enough for me once upon a time. If your needs and uses truly have not progressed, if you don't need a more responsive system, if you don't need GCC 4, CoreImage/Audio/Video/Data, or any of the applications that make use of them, then 10.2.8 is just fine. Go to it.

Ultimately it's each to his own, and very simple people will like the slower, more sluggish, but original interface they learned on, like os9.

OS 9 lacks many things (like preemptive multitasking), but speed is not one of them. The OS 9 interface is blazing compared to anything OS X put out until 10.4, and still has a slight edge as far as I can tell.

Then again, I'm on a 1.25 ghz G4. I wouldnt even think of trying to install 10.4 on my 233 imac. It has enough issues running 10.2.1)

If you're running 10.2.1 on that, for bob's sake put 10.4 on. 10.3 and 10.4 are both meaningfully faster than 10.2, though the fastest direction for that critter is OS 9 (though that comes with other disadvantages that make it not worth it for some people, myself included).

~J

[:) Da Cid (: McCl]

Just hurry up and fix my friggin' computer Will. >_>

-TGP-

[William Wallet]

"That's great. That doesn't mean they could reasonably control the issue."

These people saved your bacon back in 2004! How can you forget??

"I don't, since you apparently didn't. During the install process, on the screen immediately after choosing the disk to install to, there is a button toward the left of the window to select amongst the installation options. If you rerun the installation now (assuming you've updated the system) the installer will require you to click that button, as it will (properly) refuse to install-in-place on a more up-to-date system."

Well I looked, but my memory of this is basically opening "Install OSX", the computer asking me for my password and then restarting, and going through the usual motions that OSX apps do, with the 'pick the drive' bit, the license bit... I seriously don't recall seeing any real options or anything. Heck there wasn't even a choice to include developer stuff (I wouldn't have picked it anyway, but I noticed the lack of this option).
Now that I think about it, isn't that on a seperate disc? Oh well.
I can always install again (not that it'd achieve anything) but I dunno.

"You'll excuse me if I doubt your claim that it isn't there"

Of course I do, look if it's usually there when you do OSX installations I'm not going to refute it. But my lasting thought through the process was 'aren't I supposed to *pick* any of this stuff?'

"... as I have installed OS X upwards of fifty times (once per major revision on five general-use computers and a few external emergency boot drives, god-knows-how-many times on the computer I install the developer betas on) and it has, through all versions and betas that I can remember, always been there."

Heh, you've done it 50 times and you still can't get it right?
Just jokes, look - if it all works in your experience then good for you. But my first touch of OSX has left me a little burned to be honest - it seems to run a little faster (which I'm used to, being an OS9 user anyway) and there are some user interface things that I dig, but on the whole it feels homogenised.

"Just hurry up and fix my friggin' computer Will. >_>"

Shuddup Mr. I-Went-Over-My-Monthly-Bandwidth-In-5-Days.
Hey, you've been an awful busy poster tonight! You trying to up your post count or what so you can look Elfoid in the face??

I reckon, as much as 10.4 is giving me the redarse, we may have to stick with it - but now pursue some way of getting some of that 3GB back. I mean it still seems a much of a muchness there.

And I don't care how stable, fashionable, useful, whatever 10.4 is... I can't see any of this justifying the removal of Quick Time Pro and the installation of a crippled version of Quick Time 7. I am unimpressed.

[Death's Avatar]

Uhm Will...When you install OS X there is a big list of information hanging out near that thing you clicked "agree" too. It really isnt apples fault that you didn't read up about the features before you went and installed it .

As for quicktime...you just enter your code again...and uh...your fine. If of course you need to update your registration or something, then once again your fault for not reading about what 10.4 would do. Really there is no one here to blame except cid.

-DA

[TarousZars]

Quicktime Pro 7 required a new purchase. Lame-O in my opinion.