stumped on TFL trivia - which army on whose side?

[Welly (home)]

I don't have access to TFL right now, and won't for a week or so. But I'd like to know: in the TFL levels where the undead fought each other, which army was Myrdred's and which was the Watcher's? I remember one had soulless & thrall and the other was fetch & thrall.

Assuming my memory is correct, it may be possible to figure out who was on who's side: Scaripant the Dec's shade might be something like team 1 and the thrall-soulless might be team 1 also, leaving the thrall-fetch to be team 2 and therefore the Watcher's. Or vice versa. Which is right? can this be verified in TFL loathing (which I can't access right now)? is there a better way to see which army belonged to whom?

My best guess would be that the thrall-soulless were the Watcher's, since he had so many of them in his namesake level, AND that combo is a double whammy of undead, the watcher's specialty. As opposed to the fetch, which aren't undead, and, being sentient, make for better company for a man known as the furor poeticus among the trow. But these are all just guesses.

[William Wallet]

Cid and me were contemplating doing a level of the Rabican-Watcher (and subsequently Watcher-Deciever) conflict in that area.
We tried solving the very same question you've just posed, but came to the following (unfortunate) solution:

There are actually fetch, soulless and thrall on both the blue and the grey teams on that level, so identifying the armies by troop selection alone was pretty much impossible.

I wagered that the grey were under the control of The Deciever because the decieved soldiers on Shadow of the Mountain were also grey.
However, I still don't like that because I figured blue was more a Soulblighter colour than anything...

It's times like this that I wish heraldry had played a bigger part in Myth. I know for a fact that when I pick collection references, I make sure that they actually *mean* something!

[Doromas]

doesnt the shade have a similar color to one of the teams?

I mean theres a grey and a blue team, so if he's blue-ish i'd say he belongs to team blue. Though should be easy to find out if the shade has a team color. (If he hasnt than i cant help on this i think)

[Lugas]

doesnt the shade have a similar color to one of the teams?

I mean theres a grey and a blue team, so if he's blue-ish i'd say he belongs to team blue. Though should be easy to find out if the shade has a team color. (If he hasnt than i cant help on this i think)

Yes it does. This could mean that the Deceiver's undead were blue and so was the Shade. The objectives tell you to find The Deceiver's Shade, Scariapant (or something along those lines), and it could mean that The Deceiver was blue.

[Gleep]

The Deceiver and The Watcher both had souless, thrall, and fetch. Pretty much even teams. Which makes me wonder if The Deceiver can turn/control/raise undead in tfl, why can't he in m2?

[:) Da Cid (: McCl]

I thought the gray were the Deceiver's merely because it suited him more. I don't know why. >_>

Anyway, blue (I think) had a lot more soulless, and gray a lot more fetch. From memory.

-TGP-

[Pyro]

Keep in mind that these are the remains of both The Deceiver's and The Watcher's armies. So if one side has more thrall than the other doesn't quite mean that for their regular armies they have the same majority. You could always give The Watcher more undead and The Deceiver more binded units with some undead.

[William Wallet]

"Anyway, blue (I think) had a lot more soulless, and gray a lot more fetch. From memory"

This was my recollection too Cid, but let me refresh your memory - it's pretty much the same proportion, but you run into different selections at different times (so in the first wave, perhaps one side doesn't have fetch, but the next wave will equalise). This is sort of how I remember it, I must play it again!

"Which makes me wonder if The Deceiver can turn/control/raise undead in tfl, why can't he in m2?"

This seems simple to me Gleep, though it's pure conjecture.
The Deciever has been in a river for 60 years and doesn't have access to the massive body depots that the other Fallen usually do.
Those bodies gotta come from somewhere!
Also there's the small matter of who he's fighting for. I'm guessing that Alric probably said "NO THRALL, MYRDRED" on enlisting him; it wouldn't do well for the Light to employ someone who uses undead.

"Yes it does. This could mean that the Deceiver's undead were blue and so was the Shade. The objectives tell you to find The Deceiver's Shade, Scariapant (or something along those lines), and it could mean that The Deceiver was blue."

I agree, this probably means that the Deciever was supposed to be blue - but I just think it's a shoddy choice. Grey is already identified as a Myrdred colour in "Shadow". Blue is not the most forbidding colour to see when you consider The Watcher being a badass (and look on the level where you kill the Watcher - they're all brown).

I think a deal of consistency would've been added to the game if they'd come up with definitive heraldry. You see hints of this in the opening levels (with the warriors changing colour as you go from the Madrigal region, further south to Juniper... I MEAN Covenant!).

Anyway.

[William Wallet]

Some notes : understand that I've been working off the version of Seven Gates that's in The Fallen Levels. I'm pretty sure Iron Duke would've gotten all this right

The blue army?
50 Thrall, 27 Soulless and 7 Fetch.
Grey army?
94 Thrall, 27 Soulless and 10 Fetch.

I'm not sure why one army has almost twice the number of thrall, to be honest I don't recall engaging that many more thrall on one side as opposed to another.

Here's some more things to consider - the monster names, I'm pretty certain of this, came from TFL and were kept the same (correct me if I'm wrong, Magma). The grey soldiers are identified as "Watcherz boyz" and stuff like that.
Interestingly, the blue thrall monster tags don't have any special names but the blue soulless are labelled as Soulblighters.
See, I KNEW his army was blue.

Finally - regardless of the discrepancies with unit colours, the Shade appears to be on Team 2, which matches up with the GREY army in this level. At face value, this would indicate that he's teamed up with the Watcher for whatever reason.

So either BUNGiE got it wrong, IronDuke got it wrong, or Scaripant defected.

There you have it.

[:) Da Cid (: McCl]

My best bet is that Bungie didn't think that in 7 years people would be arguing over the colour of units and the order of avatara in a picture.

-TGP-

[William Wallet]

"My best bet is that Bungie didn't think that in 7 years people would be arguing over the colour of units and the order of avatara in a picture."

My erstwhile nephew, I was well aware of the pathetic nature of things while I was typing that wone out

(Yes - 'wone' is deliberate, don't bug me).

But the fact is, these are things one *has* to figure out if they're to make maps based on these characters, these armies and this story. That is, if they want to make it 'good' anyway.