Mazz VI: Wisdom of the Mancers

[Archer]

So we've got a group that runs through Mazz VI with some regularity (on Timid, because we're not very good and we can rarely get more than three or four people together), and it falls to me to tend the Mancers (and sometimes Mazz). In an attempt to suck less, I've recently dedicated some time and effort to reevaluating how I use my spells.

To this end, I've got a couple of questions, and then a list of places where I've found certain spells to be particularly handy. If you think one of my spell choices is suboptimal, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know, along with what else you'd choose (whether it be another spell or a different unit; if a different unit is better, also let me know whether you think the spell is a good solution should that unit not be in position or be otherwise unavailable).

So, questions first:

On weak mobs like soulless or ghol, if the Electromancer is going to kill them and they aren't too spread out, which of Bolt or Chain is the preferable option? Regarding Ghol, this question comes up mostly for the first few waves when firing speed is still too slow to let them close and then just Strike/mort them to death. More generally, which of Bolt or Chain is less expensive, mana-wise? I've found a number of cases where I could use either, but I can't detect a sufficient difference in expenditure to know what to do.

What are some good uses for Web? I've used it now and then to slow down incoming hordes so units could be brought into position, but it only seems to be able to make a good obstruction at places that are already natural chokepoints; I feel like I could be using it more effectively. Tips?

Likewise, Hellfire? I never find myself using it, which thus far has meant that I'm overlooking something. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but my best guess thus far has been as a slower and more mana-expensive but ammoless replacement for Path; tips?

Stasis. I've been able to use it now and again to keep a Tree (Changeling) still long enough that some slow units could get clear so we can Immolate it, but apart from that most of the obvious uses are killed by the fact that the Pyromancer can't move while using it, so it doesn't work well as a panic button. Tips?

Myrks. Other than Path or having a well-vetted Pyro and being able to cast up a Wall wide enough that the whole mob throws themselves into it, what are some good ways for Mancers to deal with Myrkridia other than "scream like a little girl for dwarf and melee support"? I've found that Missile kills myrks pretty well individually, but that's no kind of mob solution. Immolate can core a myrk formation well, but that solution is basically Path with a higher mana cost. Thoughts?

Now for the uses I've found:

Trees/Changelings: Immolate, obviously. Immolating early enough is the difference between a brief expenditure of mana and an obnoxious, prolonged battle with significant guaranteed health loss (stun arrows can sometimes get the Immolate chance back).

Beholders: if there's enough mana to go around, Bolt works well for these; four or five will kill it, and each time you hit you blast it off to the other side of the map where you don't have to worry about it for another few minutes. Plus, Bolt can't be turned aside by the barrier.

Dragons other than red: Immolate kills outright when level 3, leaves in deep red otherwise. Makes them tie up melee for a significantly shorter period.

Early-game/post-leveling vetting: play the mancers almost like melee for a bit. Electro for close-range Orbs on mauls and myrmidons, Pyro for close-range Paths down lines of thrall, myrmidons, or (in a pinch) pigs.

So, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing right? What could I be doing better?

~J

[Gleep]

Use chain on ghols and souless while they are still packed together. If you have a lot of kills you could probably cast strike fast enough to waste a lot of ghols, but souless can do permanent damage so stay clear of them.

Web is good on mauls, effective on slowing/killing myrks too.

Hellfire is costly but works well on mauls and thrall.

Stasis is for emergencies. Like saving a red unit or a missile unit getting chased by a giant. etc.

Storm cloud is costly but can save you against the mutli myrk packs or the trow pack. Good against multiple dragons, or if the whole force is overrun.

Fountain always seemed underused to me. It can stun and burn a a force that travels in a straight line, like ghols going around terrain. Or it can burn a small clump of melee. Just don't catch the poor fg in it.

[Baron LeDant]

basic stuff

stasis = use on anything powerful attacking low HP units, also on Tree's + Viles (if no explosive unit is nearby).

hellfire = waste of mana frankly

fount = can slow stuff down and is good to use early on to get some kills with, also helpful to use on Beholders so melee can rush them, use it on lichs + arch lichs also

swarm = If the Ele is busy, then 2-3 swarms can take out most of a soulless or ghol group

fireball = default attack, amazing once you get to level 2 vs single ranged enemies

wall = this is the melee killer, only myrks can break through a wall and thats with a low level pyro

path = useful for killing ghols (if they are in a line) and the spawn of arch lichs. Because it uses ammo, I wouldn't use it on anything else.

immolate = kills blue dragons, severely wounds green drags and can destroy the middle of a myrk pack, its good vs virtually everything, but I wouldn't waste the ammo + mana too much.

bolt = like hellfire this used to be really powerful in mazz games, now its pretty useless, uses a LOT of mana. If the situation is desperate you could bolt a big maul group 1-2 times, but storm would probably be better

storm = storms eat mana up fast so should be used rarely, good to use when the group is overrun by mauls or myrks or boss units

strike = great for dealing with the ghost duffs and ghols when the ele gets a bit faster, not too bad for weakening mauls.

chain = hi souls + ghols, say hello to mr chain, can use on archers if they are a real pain

missile = gets really good when vetted, mainly use on fetch + units a long way away (such as morts), do not use on locks!

web = not sure how much mana it uses but its best used for slowing mauls/myrks possibly bosses down rather than killing much

[Deqlyn]

I rarely use bolt its way to expensive unless I am trying to push behs away.

Trees u can use path(the slow moving path) and it will kill in mostly 1 hit if the tree gets to close to you not to immolate.

Chain is best on Souls/Ghols/Spiders

Dont use Firewall on myrks cause they just run through it use Immolate it works much better.

Firewall for pigs, Hellfire for pigs and thrall if you have a long perfect line, only other time i use it is if u want to kill watcher once stoned. But path works better.

Here are my tips. Dont use anything up until level 2 except: : unless its an emergency otherwise they all eat to much mana. Ele should be mostly idle except the units listed above. Pyro should just be pigs and some loose stuff that might ge through. You need to have a good mort or alot of RC's or a combination of both.

Pyro: Firewall, fireball
Elec: Chain, Strike

[Baron LeDant]

meh, I think spiders are good melee food

plus wall is pretty useful vs myrks after level 1, uses less mana than immolate and doesn't use ammo

[ChrisP]

It's been a long time since I played, but I'd add a couple minor points to the excellent tactics already posted.

Web: Good very early on when Maul can still be difficult to manage. Good as a moderate cost solution for Ghost Archers or smaller packs of Ghols. Can also be useful for the slowing effect in the right circumstances.

Hellfire: Most effective at range on very large clusters of melee. Two or three properly timed Hellfires can wipe out scores of enemies. Somewhat mana expensive, but few spells have as much destructive power if used right. More useful on higher difficulty levels than it is Timid or Simple.

Bolt: As mentioned, good at wounding and pushing back Beholders during hectic situations. Does exceptional damage against either Red or Green Dragons - can't remember which for sure, but I think it's Red. Great for quickly blasting holes in wads of Maul when not otherwise prepared to prevent an overrun. Ideal trigger for... can't recall the name of the spell, but it's that mega bomb that Mazzarin can lay down. This last tactic might be too difficult to pull off to be very effective, but nothing is more satisfying when it works.

Has anyone considered making one of those fancy new high-rez maps for Mazz VI? If so, that might be incentive enough for me to find and connect an old hard drive to dig out that version of Mazz VI v.3 - and make Jagman finish it.

Not that you noobs are ready for that much challenge yet!

[Jon God]

Has anyone considered making one of those fancy new high-rez maps for Mazz VI? If so, that might be incentive enough for me to find and connect an old hard drive to dig out that version of Mazz VI v.3 - and make Jagman finish it.

Not that you noobs are ready for that much challenge yet!

First off, Graydon did, and it is a really good one, check the tain. Second, people have really been begging for a v3 lately.

Also, welcome back!

[Pyro]

More like people are waiting for a Mazz 7. Though if this v3 of Mazz 6 makes it more of a challenge... bring it!

[GodzFire]

Great for quickly blasting holes in wads of Maul when not otherwise prepared to prevent an overrun. Ideal trigger for... can't recall the name of the spell, but it's that mega bomb that Mazzarin can lay down.

Oh man Chris, you can't even remember the Mazz spells anymore. What has WoW reduced you to! (By the way, the spell is Rift)

Like Jon said, Gray made a pretty incredible detail texture map for the mesh. It really has given new life to it.

For a v3: forget that, we are going Mazz 7 baby! It would perfect sense, since it would match the new 1.7 and could help show off some of the excellent new features it brings. Plus, I still have my PERSONAL list of items for a Mazz 7, one of which is big enough to warrant the upgrade in itself.

As I've previously said before, and will say once again, should you consider coming back, I would be at your complete and utter disposal, as would a number of highly talented creators. Hell, you could have Pyro alone be your personal bug finder.

[ChrisP]

Thanks, Godz, but a Mazz VII is out of the question. I made the last version at the height of my mapmaking capabilities, and it took nearly a year. If I started now, got all the help I needed, and spent another year, maybe what came out would be worthy of the title, maybe not. Either way, I’m not prepared to make that sort of time commitment.

However, I am kind of tempted to - sooner or later - release the “upgrade” to Mazz VI that I had started. Only the script has changed, so no balance testing of units or attacks would be required. One of the major changes is an improved algorithm to maximize the number of enemy units on the map. I forget exactly, but I think this amounted to something like 25% more enemy units to fight within the same time period. I’m not sure if that’ll make the game more fun or not, but I’ve seen how big the clusters of attacking forces can get, and it is impressive.

The other major change corrects a game flaw which is unknowingly exploited in almost every winning game. While a relatively subtle change, it makes downing the Watcher the challenge it was meant to be.

Other than the hassle of having to connect an old internal hard drive to recover the files, the problem is the scripting was never finished and I can’t remember how far along I’d gotten. Perhaps I’ll look into it soon.

[GodzFire]

And I will be there, ready to help you sir!

[Jon God]

Thanks, Godz, but a Mazz VII is out of the question. I made the last version at the height of my mapmaking capabilities, and it took nearly a year. If I started now, got all the help I needed, and spent another year, maybe what came out would be worthy of the title, maybe not. Either way, I’m not prepared to make that sort of time commitment.

However, I am kind of tempted to - sooner or later - release the “upgrade” to Mazz VI that I had started. Only the script has changed, so no balance testing of units or attacks would be required. One of the major changes is an improved algorithm to maximize the number of enemy units on the map. I forget exactly, but I think this amounted to something like 25% more enemy units to fight within the same time period. I’m not sure if that’ll make the game more fun or not, but I’ve seen how big the clusters of attacking forces can get, and it is impressive.

The other major change corrects a game flaw which is unknowingly exploited in almost every winning game. While a relatively subtle change, it makes downing the Watcher the challenge it was meant to be.

Other than the hassle of having to connect an old internal hard drive to recover the files, the problem is the scripting was never finished and I can’t remember how far along I’d gotten. Perhaps I’ll look into it soon.

I suppose if you're just updating it, we wont see projectile->Unit feature utilized. Though if you do, it could be cool.

Using OogaBooga's example elsewhere: you can now have a spider that lays eggs, which hatch into baby spiders. I could imagine the same sort of concept being put to use here.

[Pyro]

There are a few things worth noting from 1.7. Because of Mazz, the Cannot be Healed feature was altered! You have ur-Viles with that Fear flag set. So if there are negative damage based attacks that you might have been able to use against Viles, no longer in 1.7. Also, I haven't checked but someone said 1.7 changed the way the Maralith sound. They sound the same to me, but my guess is that whoever imported the lith sounds used the incorrect sound format. They used stereo instead of mono. Before 1.7, PC users would hear it one way but Mac users would hear it another way. Neither knowing the other heard it differently. In 1.7 it was altered so both PC and Mac would hear it the same.

[GodzFire]

Yea I can confirm the Maralith sound change. It now sounds like a man.

[vinylrake]

Other than the hassle of having to connect an old internal hard drive to recover the files, the problem is the scripting was never finished and I can’t remember how far along I’d gotten. Perhaps I’ll look into it soon.

Not to put fuel on the fire, but IDE->USB adapter cables that let you plug one end into HD and other end into USB port on computer are generally @$15 at microcenter. Great for single use recovering data off of unused HDs. [of course these cables can be used more than once, but with no casing to protect the HD this wouldn't be a very safe 'permanent' external HD solution]

Maybe some Mazz fans can confirm the kind of HD Chrisp has and chip in to get him an appropriate adapter?

http://microcenter.com/search/search_re ... submit.y=0

(scroll to bottom of page - 3 options for $15)