Hey folks, long time no talk.
If anyone here has been paying attention to the latest Blizzard announcements, you've surely heard about Starcraft 2's new editor. They showed some really cool things you could do with it. You can mod the game to a 3rd-person shooter, or an arcade style space ship game. Check out the video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joNPrnY4 ... feature=iv
It sounds like the editor intends to allow a lot of customization. What do you guys think about taking advantage of this and incorporating myth 2 gameplay?
If all of us here in the myth community lends a hand, I think this could be a way to start a brand new era for myth. It will obviously take skill to make a myth engine/mod in the sc2 editor, and to create, import models and units, but the myth community obviously has the skills to do this.
Blizzard even talked about ownership for custom maps/plugins. Meaning if the myth mod, if it were to be made is successful, you can make money from it. I know this community isn't about making money off their creation, but it could be an incentive for some.
But the best part is, SC2 will launch sometime 2010. Millions of people will be playing it. It will be brand new, have the latest graphics and tech. This means we could upgrade from our sub 100 people playing the myth 2 to the battle.net community with a countless number of players. Not only does this mean we get to play with other players on the regular (if myth for SC2 is well accepted) but the talent of people who create things here will be appreciated by a wider audience. There's a lot of creative stuff being made by you guys, as well as mythers of the past. It's a waste if only 30-50 people download and play something you guys have been working for months or even years. Some of the stuff you guys produce are so good, you obviously deserve a bigger spotlight.
The huge downside to this is obviously for those who are working on big projects right now, and the fact we would have to start over. But in the long run I think this is a huge opportunity for us to grow again as a community of mythers. This is my favorite game of all time, and I'm always wanting to create stuff for it, but I get so let down when I know there will be so few that will even play what I create.
Let me know what you guys think
-Buck Mild / Floyd
Future of New Myth
Re: Future of New Myth
I can only speak for myself, here, but I'm not too enthusiastic about trying to wedge myth into starcraft's engine.
I have yet to see gameplay for SC2 that looks in any way shape or form capable of using formations, pathfinding, physics or unit selection controls necessary to actually recreate the feel of myth.
To be honest, I despise blizzard as a company, and the way everyone followed their example of "what an RTS should be". Buildings pumping out units. No thought or care as to how you apply those units, just at what time and distance you order your blobs into battle.
But anyways, this is just my opinion. I'm sure someone else is absolutely ecstatic about the prospect.
And somehow I dont think it will be easy to get starcrap fans to care about a mod in which you arent able to endlessly build buildings and spam units. Thats something they wouldnt know how to handle, and probably would end up wasting all their units early and getting frustrated and then go on to say how much the mod sucks because its not what theyre used to.
I have yet to see gameplay for SC2 that looks in any way shape or form capable of using formations, pathfinding, physics or unit selection controls necessary to actually recreate the feel of myth.
To be honest, I despise blizzard as a company, and the way everyone followed their example of "what an RTS should be". Buildings pumping out units. No thought or care as to how you apply those units, just at what time and distance you order your blobs into battle.
But anyways, this is just my opinion. I'm sure someone else is absolutely ecstatic about the prospect.
And somehow I dont think it will be easy to get starcrap fans to care about a mod in which you arent able to endlessly build buildings and spam units. Thats something they wouldnt know how to handle, and probably would end up wasting all their units early and getting frustrated and then go on to say how much the mod sucks because its not what theyre used to.
Re: Future of New Myth
I also dislike the fact people have taken starcraft as the basis for every strategy game. I think that myth's gameplay is superior and more intimate.
but i don't think you get what im trying to point out, and if you did and still feel the same way, i apologize (to ooga).
If I recall correctly though, ooga, you told me before starting your myth 4 project, you were looking at a number of game engines to make the game from. After looking at quake and a few other engines, you settled with myth for reasons I can't remember. Because of this actually, I thought you would really like my idea of recreating a myth game in starcraft 2.
From what the developers said, the editor with starcraft 2 will allow you to basically make a brand new game. For example, in starcraft there is only one camera angle, but with work in the editor you can make it rotate and zoom in/out like we can in myth. This goes for gameplay as well, as you will be able to choose not to implement buildings that spit out units or units that build buildings. From the hype they are giving us about customization, formations could also be put in the game. Custom UI can be put in as well.
What I'm trying to stress here I guess is that, I'm not talking about a starcraft 2 with myth units. I think that starcraft 2's new editor can be used to make make a new myth engine. Make an edit in the game so we can have dwarf cocktails and archer's arrow function as they do in myth, etc.
And i agree with you ooga, that starcraft fans might not like the myth style of play where you cant make countless units, but its not like every person that plays starcraft is closed minded. There will be people who buy the game just to make mods and/or play the mods. People play warcraft now just for the mods that don't function at all like a strategy game.
but i don't think you get what im trying to point out, and if you did and still feel the same way, i apologize (to ooga).
If I recall correctly though, ooga, you told me before starting your myth 4 project, you were looking at a number of game engines to make the game from. After looking at quake and a few other engines, you settled with myth for reasons I can't remember. Because of this actually, I thought you would really like my idea of recreating a myth game in starcraft 2.
From what the developers said, the editor with starcraft 2 will allow you to basically make a brand new game. For example, in starcraft there is only one camera angle, but with work in the editor you can make it rotate and zoom in/out like we can in myth. This goes for gameplay as well, as you will be able to choose not to implement buildings that spit out units or units that build buildings. From the hype they are giving us about customization, formations could also be put in the game. Custom UI can be put in as well.
What I'm trying to stress here I guess is that, I'm not talking about a starcraft 2 with myth units. I think that starcraft 2's new editor can be used to make make a new myth engine. Make an edit in the game so we can have dwarf cocktails and archer's arrow function as they do in myth, etc.
And i agree with you ooga, that starcraft fans might not like the myth style of play where you cant make countless units, but its not like every person that plays starcraft is closed minded. There will be people who buy the game just to make mods and/or play the mods. People play warcraft now just for the mods that don't function at all like a strategy game.
Re: Future of New Myth
Aren't you just stereotyping, I bet their version of you would say Myth fans wouldn't know what to do with so many spawning units.oogaBooga wrote:And somehow I dont think it will be easy to get starcrap fans to care about a mod in which you arent able to endlessly build buildings and spam units. Thats something they wouldnt know how to handle, and probably would end up wasting all their units early and getting frustrated and then go on to say how much the mod sucks because its not what theyre used to.
We already have people that blame the mod in this community. Sometimes before even trying it.As for the original poster's question. The idea seems nice, but as ooga pointed out we don't have enough details as to what the SC2 engine can do. Eventhough it has its similarities with a game like Myth it still is different. SC has been about armies while Myth has been about squads. Maybe it can work... maybe it could remind some old Mythers that Myth still exists. Or TakeTwo can send a letter to you for trying to make such a mod! (If anyone told them that is, since they might not even notice.)
Re: Future of New Myth
Well first off, starcraft and myth doesn't function like each other at all, but thats okay because from what the developers have told us, you can make basically any game out of the engine. Please watch at the 5 minute youtube video on my first post at the top.
And as for the take-two thing, I love the myth storyline and characters, but it doesnt have to be myth exactly. i don't even care if it's called a myth mod or whatever. If there be a game made with the starcraft 2 engine that has the gameplay and camera controls of myth, that would be enough. From there people could make mods for the Myth engine in Starcraft 2 (if that makes sense), and the developers are saying it is relatively easy to learn compared to other map editors.
-Buck Mild / Floyd
And as for the take-two thing, I love the myth storyline and characters, but it doesnt have to be myth exactly. i don't even care if it's called a myth mod or whatever. If there be a game made with the starcraft 2 engine that has the gameplay and camera controls of myth, that would be enough. From there people could make mods for the Myth engine in Starcraft 2 (if that makes sense), and the developers are saying it is relatively easy to learn compared to other map editors.
-Buck Mild / Floyd
Re: Future of New Myth
No no, dont apologize, I was just being a cynical bastard. Its just my personal feelings and I doubt others feel so vehement about certain parts of it as I do, so don't think i'm representative of the general consensusbut i don't think you get what im trying to point out, and if you did and still feel the same way, i apologize (to ooga).
If this is actually possible, IE having a physics and attack editor complex enough to simulate myth, then you have definitely piqued my interest. I still dont know if you can ever make it FEEL like myth though, thats my main concern. Its kinda like myth 3, even though it was based on myth code, it really was a very different feeling game, despite its attempt to cling to its predecessors' roots (and it did a pretty good job of that).What I'm trying to stress here I guess is that, I'm not talking about a starcraft 2 with myth units. I think that starcraft 2's new editor can be used to make make a new myth engine. Make an edit in the game so we can have dwarf cocktails and archer's arrow function as they do in myth, etc.
Then there might be a real audience for such a thing. I really dont mean to try to rain on your parade, with the first post I made. Like I said i'm just being a cynical myth-lovin' bastardAnd i agree with you ooga, that starcraft fans might not like the myth style of play where you cant make countless units, but its not like every person that plays starcraft is closed minded. There will be people who buy the game just to make mods and/or play the mods. People play warcraft now just for the mods that don't function at all like a strategy game.
Re: Future of New Myth
Yes, even though I appreciated myth 3's development, it lacked the feel I get from myth 2. And I will say that in this problem could definitely pop up if the SC2 engine is used.
and it's not out till sometime next year so we won't know until then, but they (Blizzard) makes it sound as though every little bit can be tweeked to make any game you want. Like I said, in the video they show a 3rd person game they made with the engine as well as a classic arcade spaceship shooter.
With the talent and skill i've seen in this community, I'm pretty sure its possible. Might take awhile to get it right, of course.
And yeah I think there could be a pretty big fanbase if it's done right.
and it's not out till sometime next year so we won't know until then, but they (Blizzard) makes it sound as though every little bit can be tweeked to make any game you want. Like I said, in the video they show a 3rd person game they made with the engine as well as a classic arcade spaceship shooter.
With the talent and skill i've seen in this community, I'm pretty sure its possible. Might take awhile to get it right, of course.
And yeah I think there could be a pretty big fanbase if it's done right.
Re: Future of New Myth
First off... What makes you think I didn't watch that video to begin with? Did I say something that sounded like I didn't know what the topic was about?Buck Mild wrote:Well first off, starcraft and myth doesn't function like each other at all, but thats okay because from what the developers have told us, you can make basically any game out of the engine. Please watch at the 5 minute youtube video on my first post at the top.
There is a difference between saying an editor can do lots of things and knowing exactly what it can actually do. I stated that both games are different and that it would depend on what the SC2 engine can do... I don't care if there are 100 examples of what its editor CAN do. It still does not prove that it can do what would be needed for a Myth-like mod.
Another game engine that comes to mind is the Source engine. The one by Valve for games like Half-Life 2. The games using this engine are first person shooters. Guess what, some people have been using it to make an RTS version of the HL verse.
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Killswitch
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Re: Future of New Myth
I'll jump on board and say this has my attention as well. Like others have said, we don't know specifics about the SC2 engine, but if it is as customizable as the video claims then we might have a shot.
Yes, Blizzard is a huge behemoth of a game company and yes, their game styles can be a bit domineering. I like to think of them as the Disney of video games: may not be the best, but they are one of the biggest. I read somewhere that there's something like a half million WoW players. Sure, WoW players ≠SC2 players but Blizzard has quite a few fanboy followers. Even with a small percentage of SC2 players interested in a Myth-like mod, that's still several hundred (maybe thousands?).
The current Myth community is not exactly growing by leaps and bounds. As time marches on, it will only decrease. (Not trying to bash the Myth community, just trying to be a realist.) This might be the shot we're looking for. But it has to be polished. None of this half-assed Myth 3 stuff. To quote Luke Skywalker, "If we're going in, we're going full throttle." The key to this project is the SC2 engine; it has to be versatile to handle the demands of the Myth engine, otherwise it's a lost cause.
Yes, Blizzard is a huge behemoth of a game company and yes, their game styles can be a bit domineering. I like to think of them as the Disney of video games: may not be the best, but they are one of the biggest. I read somewhere that there's something like a half million WoW players. Sure, WoW players ≠SC2 players but Blizzard has quite a few fanboy followers. Even with a small percentage of SC2 players interested in a Myth-like mod, that's still several hundred (maybe thousands?).
The current Myth community is not exactly growing by leaps and bounds. As time marches on, it will only decrease. (Not trying to bash the Myth community, just trying to be a realist.) This might be the shot we're looking for. But it has to be polished. None of this half-assed Myth 3 stuff. To quote Luke Skywalker, "If we're going in, we're going full throttle." The key to this project is the SC2 engine; it has to be versatile to handle the demands of the Myth engine, otherwise it's a lost cause.
Re: Future of New Myth
I loved SC and I'll probably buy SC2 even though I dislike blizzard as a company (too greedy, litigious, and immoral - though that's pretty much the definition of a big corporation these days).
The editor for SC was incredible and based on that video it looks like they've gone and done the same thing for SC2, but 100 times better. (Warcraft 3 being an intermediate step) I think you've really got a point here, in the future, tons of games will be built inside SC2, it's inevitable. Even more so if Blizzard is actually planning for that by designing compensation systems. Maybe they're trying to pull an Apple: create an internal software market a-la-iphone, control distribution and take a huge chunk of the profit. Clever.
As others have mentioned, it remains to be seen whether it is possible to recreate the feel of M2 inside the SC2 engine. Personally, I wonder if it is even possible to recreate the feel in _any_ engine using polygonal units. I'm not dismissive of the idea though - I would applaud an attempt (by someone else, I'm not personally interested) to port some or all of the gameplay into an SC2 mod.
The editor for SC was incredible and based on that video it looks like they've gone and done the same thing for SC2, but 100 times better. (Warcraft 3 being an intermediate step) I think you've really got a point here, in the future, tons of games will be built inside SC2, it's inevitable. Even more so if Blizzard is actually planning for that by designing compensation systems. Maybe they're trying to pull an Apple: create an internal software market a-la-iphone, control distribution and take a huge chunk of the profit. Clever.
As others have mentioned, it remains to be seen whether it is possible to recreate the feel of M2 inside the SC2 engine. Personally, I wonder if it is even possible to recreate the feel in _any_ engine using polygonal units. I'm not dismissive of the idea though - I would applaud an attempt (by someone else, I'm not personally interested) to port some or all of the gameplay into an SC2 mod.
Try 11.5 million. To put that into perspective, there are over 100 countries with populations smaller than WoW's playerbase.Killswitch wrote:I read somewhere that there's something like a half million WoW players.
Re: Future of New Myth
Isn't there a big legality issue too?
If Take 2 suddenly saw Myth in SC2 they'd be none too happy I think. I bet they'd jump at an obvious chance to sue the pants off of someone to get some return on Myth.
If Take 2 suddenly saw Myth in SC2 they'd be none too happy I think. I bet they'd jump at an obvious chance to sue the pants off of someone to get some return on Myth.
Being Haravikk gets you girls like these:
Re: Future of New Myth
There are two reasons I wouldn't jump right at that game.
1. No LAN play, for me, a big part of making the plugins I make, is playing them LAN with family/friends LAN play, take that away, and I don't see anywhere near the drive to make something that I just have to hope other people online have.
2. I am fairly sure my old computer wont run StarCraft II.
Then there's other reasons; like mentioned before, having it 'feel' like myth. I doubt that engine will give us anything that will feel close to myth, myth 3 even. Also, what about all the projects that I am working on already? And what about starting new mods, Myth already has a very nice amount of content to start with, when starting a new mod, making it possible to make complex mods that are 90% reused content, and if we moved to an engine of a game with Space Marines, it would mean a lot more work. There's also the features of myth, local folders, saved films, inventory for units, ect.
And than after all that, we land on the thought of learning a completely different game to mod, that is probably not very similar to myth, not something most myth modders would want to get into.
In the end, if someone made a myth mod for it, I'd go out of my way to try it, but I certainly wouldn't switch games.
1. No LAN play, for me, a big part of making the plugins I make, is playing them LAN with family/friends LAN play, take that away, and I don't see anywhere near the drive to make something that I just have to hope other people online have.
2. I am fairly sure my old computer wont run StarCraft II.
Then there's other reasons; like mentioned before, having it 'feel' like myth. I doubt that engine will give us anything that will feel close to myth, myth 3 even. Also, what about all the projects that I am working on already? And what about starting new mods, Myth already has a very nice amount of content to start with, when starting a new mod, making it possible to make complex mods that are 90% reused content, and if we moved to an engine of a game with Space Marines, it would mean a lot more work. There's also the features of myth, local folders, saved films, inventory for units, ect.
And than after all that, we land on the thought of learning a completely different game to mod, that is probably not very similar to myth, not something most myth modders would want to get into.
In the end, if someone made a myth mod for it, I'd go out of my way to try it, but I certainly wouldn't switch games.
PSN: Jon_God
XBL: J0N GOD
Re: Future of New Myth
Look at warcraft III, most people play custom mapsoogaBooga wrote:I can only speak for myself, here, but I'm not too enthusiastic about trying to wedge myth into starcraft's engine.
I have yet to see gameplay for SC2 that looks in any way shape or form capable of using formations, pathfinding, physics or unit selection controls necessary to actually recreate the feel of myth.
To be honest, I despise blizzard as a company, and the way everyone followed their example of "what an RTS should be". Buildings pumping out units. No thought or care as to how you apply those units, just at what time and distance you order your blobs into battle.
But anyways, this is just my opinion. I'm sure someone else is absolutely ecstatic about the prospect.
And somehow I dont think it will be easy to get starcrap fans to care about a mod in which you arent able to endlessly build buildings and spam units. Thats something they wouldnt know how to handle, and probably would end up wasting all their units early and getting frustrated and then go on to say how much the mod sucks because its not what theyre used to.
Re: Future of New Myth
It's an interesting idea - porting the myth-play-look-and-feel to a new game development/playing environment, and I have many of the same concerns or red-flags that keep me from jumping in enthusiastically, but the major issue is that the editor hasn't been released yet. Until it has been released and people have been able to get their hands on it and find out what it can and can't do in terms of physics, camera controls, unit/squad management, importing existing/ported resources, etc we don't have anything to base our opinions of whether this is possible or not on except for marketing/promotional material (which as a general rule is worth less then the bits that were magnetized to produce the content). So other than saying "I wonder if it can be done?" anything else we can say on the topic is just conjecture and nothing more.
So - interesting idea, but since no one can do anything at the present, rather than try to defend the idea (you can't defend something that doesn't exist against conjecture or fears anyways) bring the topic back up when the editor is released, or there's more info available. Or better yet, just post to this thread with any updates.
Thanks for proposing this, it IS an interesting idea.
So - interesting idea, but since no one can do anything at the present, rather than try to defend the idea (you can't defend something that doesn't exist against conjecture or fears anyways) bring the topic back up when the editor is released, or there's more info available. Or better yet, just post to this thread with any updates.
Thanks for proposing this, it IS an interesting idea.
Re: Future of New Myth
Pyro: Sorry and no, I was just referencing to the video for my example, no means of offending you.
Killswitch: Yeah, WoW has millions of players. I think over 10 Million as Melekor stated. This doesn't mean starcraft 2 will have that many players, but my guess is that they will have a lot, a few million.
and yes if we were to make myth for SC2 it would have to be done right so people will download it, play it, and want to come back for more.
Melekor: Yeah, it is exactly like Apple. They're plans are to do what Apple did with 'apps' for the iPhone. They said that you can post your creations on battlenet2, and if it's of good quality and people like it, (i dont know how they measure that) it becomes 'premium' status. A price can be attached by the creator with the copyright, but I'm sure you can put it up for free as well.
Haravikk: They would so we shouldn't. We should recreate the myth physics, gameplay, and controls to the best possible, and it could be under a different name. An all new game with shockingly similar units to myth.
Jon God: There is no LAN and that does suck. I used to play myth with my brother via LAN and that was a good experience. However, I also played myth online when it was booming online. I don't think it ever had the fanbase of starcraft, but I remember when multiple rooms were full. I consider those days the golden days of myth. If I could have that back I'd be one happy gamer.
and as for myth mods we already have, yeah, I don't want to ditch them either. There are some really cool stuff here. But, when I can't even find three other players on a regular basis to play 7th god, theres no point. Myth co-op to me has now become almost like a planned vacation. Even with mazzarin's demise I've scheduled it with people a few days ahead of time. When I play it it's obviously a ton of fun, but it'd be nice to make a game of mazz and have people fight for a spot in a 10 second window before the game becomes full. On a regular basis.
people making mods currently, that is a big downer for you too i know. Jon God last time we talked I remember you were working on a Halo mod. I had my go at that too, and I made a lot of cool guns. I even made a sticky plasma grenade, with blue contrails and explosion and it stuck to a unit (based off of weirdobodom or whatever it's called's sticky satchels). But everyone the thought came into my head of my mod being played for maybe a few days after release, I dropped the project. Sorry if that sounded like a downer to you, and I don't want you to stop whatever project you are working now, but my point is that if there are hundreds or thousands who play, i think it would be way worth having learning a new map making program. All you mapmakers here deserve a bigger audience. Just my opinion.
Vinylrake: Yeah, obviously we have to wait till the release and I will admit my proposal was early. The game doesn't come out till next year, but the beta will be coming out by the end of this year. I have read that the beta will come with the map editor. I dont have the beta invite but I'm sure I will hear of all the stuff being made by the beta communities and get a feel for what the engine is capable of.
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There are people on the SC2 forums already discussing their project lineup for this editor. They say they have story lines, new gameplay ideas, etc. So even though it may not work as I'm hoping, I am still excited because I really think it has so much potential. If it didn't I wouldn't be posting such ridiculously long posts. I love myth, it is my favorite game but I want to be able to play it like I did 9 years ago.
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Sorry for the
Killswitch: Yeah, WoW has millions of players. I think over 10 Million as Melekor stated. This doesn't mean starcraft 2 will have that many players, but my guess is that they will have a lot, a few million.
and yes if we were to make myth for SC2 it would have to be done right so people will download it, play it, and want to come back for more.
Melekor: Yeah, it is exactly like Apple. They're plans are to do what Apple did with 'apps' for the iPhone. They said that you can post your creations on battlenet2, and if it's of good quality and people like it, (i dont know how they measure that) it becomes 'premium' status. A price can be attached by the creator with the copyright, but I'm sure you can put it up for free as well.
Haravikk: They would so we shouldn't. We should recreate the myth physics, gameplay, and controls to the best possible, and it could be under a different name. An all new game with shockingly similar units to myth.
Jon God: There is no LAN and that does suck. I used to play myth with my brother via LAN and that was a good experience. However, I also played myth online when it was booming online. I don't think it ever had the fanbase of starcraft, but I remember when multiple rooms were full. I consider those days the golden days of myth. If I could have that back I'd be one happy gamer.
and as for myth mods we already have, yeah, I don't want to ditch them either. There are some really cool stuff here. But, when I can't even find three other players on a regular basis to play 7th god, theres no point. Myth co-op to me has now become almost like a planned vacation. Even with mazzarin's demise I've scheduled it with people a few days ahead of time. When I play it it's obviously a ton of fun, but it'd be nice to make a game of mazz and have people fight for a spot in a 10 second window before the game becomes full. On a regular basis.
people making mods currently, that is a big downer for you too i know. Jon God last time we talked I remember you were working on a Halo mod. I had my go at that too, and I made a lot of cool guns. I even made a sticky plasma grenade, with blue contrails and explosion and it stuck to a unit (based off of weirdobodom or whatever it's called's sticky satchels). But everyone the thought came into my head of my mod being played for maybe a few days after release, I dropped the project. Sorry if that sounded like a downer to you, and I don't want you to stop whatever project you are working now, but my point is that if there are hundreds or thousands who play, i think it would be way worth having learning a new map making program. All you mapmakers here deserve a bigger audience. Just my opinion.
Vinylrake: Yeah, obviously we have to wait till the release and I will admit my proposal was early. The game doesn't come out till next year, but the beta will be coming out by the end of this year. I have read that the beta will come with the map editor. I dont have the beta invite but I'm sure I will hear of all the stuff being made by the beta communities and get a feel for what the engine is capable of.
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There are people on the SC2 forums already discussing their project lineup for this editor. They say they have story lines, new gameplay ideas, etc. So even though it may not work as I'm hoping, I am still excited because I really think it has so much potential. If it didn't I wouldn't be posting such ridiculously long posts. I love myth, it is my favorite game but I want to be able to play it like I did 9 years ago.
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Sorry for the