Units' Vetting Questions

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

Ok its been a while. When a unit reaches 250+ kills, does it automatically become a hero? Even if it doesn't get labeled as a "Hero," will it behave and fight like a hero? Also, as units vet on timid, do they not vet as much as they would if they were vetting on a harder difficulty, like legendary? So, an archer with 20 kills on timid has better accuracy, but does it shoot as fast or accurate as the 20 kill archer playing on legendary?

[Pyro]

If you are talking about default/regular maps, then no. The default vet limit is 5 kills, and some units don't even vet. Some unit types will attack slightly faster (less recovery time in between attacks) the more kills it has (up to 5 kills) or even toss the attack itself faster.

As for difficulty, Timid and Simple give the player units a higher resistance to damage... or maybe it gives the enemies a lower resistance to damage... I forget which. Normal and up are the same, unless the mapmaker made it different like adding more enemies in higher difficulties.

[Graydon]

Basically units that do vet are governed by what is called the "recovery time experience delta". What this will do is subtract that value from the total value of 'recovery time' for the attack, making the recovery time slightly less (and therefore the attack faster). However, for default units as Pyro says, the vet limit is capped at 5 kills, so any kills after 5 wont affect that recovery time.

The exception to this is a mapmaking feature that was employed in 1.6 or something, where a mapmaker can use a customized field in Fear to set the total kills that unit vets up until. So for units in Mazz for example, the curve is gradual and steady all the way up.

In summary: For your standard multiplayer experience, your micromanagement is better employed getting units with 2 and 3 kills up to 5, instead of microing to keep your 15 kill unit alive.

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

that sounds like a really low cap limit, and i can swear that archers keep vetting the more kills they get too. a 5 kill archer is hardly affected, other than being more accurate. however, one with like 50 kills shoots arrows at a noticeably higher rate.

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

Ok just made an interesting discovery. When using the TSG Tagset on the regular solo campaign maps, the archers seem to keep on vetting beyond 5 kills. i played willow creek on timid, then my vet archers carried over into salvation. upon attacking the first enemy unit, my highest vetted archer was clearly shooting the fastest, who had about 15 kills, then the next archer who had about 10 kills shot next, and then the one with 8 or 9. the 15 kill archer shot and hit the target 3 times, while the fresh new bowmen shot 2 arrows in the same amount of time. not sure if this is what its like on the TSG solo maps, i'd assume it would be the same though.

[Graydon]

Pretty sure you're just seeing things. There is also always some randomness in accuracy and so on, so it is possible in a single test scenario that a lower kill archer will outshoot a higher kill one.

But we can assure you the vet is capped at 5 for all default units. The code says so.

[Pyro]

He mentions the TSG Tagset, which means its possible the plugin messes with default units. I looked into the plugin and it does modify units. In the TSG Tagset, the bowmen is set to have a 17 max experience cap. The heron is set to 10 max. Other units are left to their default experience cap like dwarves.

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

seeing things my ass

[vinylrake]

REGULAR BUNGIE-created myth levels have certain specific rules about vetting. 3rd Party myth levels CAN have different rules. The Bungie rules are well known, the ones for 3rd party maps aren't because every map can be different. You mentioned vetting over 5 kills on the Bungie created Shiver level, then mention archers on the Creation Games created TSG levels. Those are two completely seperate things and one has nothing to do with the other in regards to vetting. If you want to argue about vetting over 5 kills FIND A REGULAR BUNGIE SOLO LEVEL where 10 kill units attack faster than 6 kill units, and supply a film, otherwise stop complaining about this because no one is arguing that 3rd party maps can't have different vetting rules and you are just making an argument where there is none.

ps.I am impressed that you can even make out which units are which on that screen of yours.

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

why are you getting angry? sounds like you are trying to start a flamewar. was simply pointing out that my logic was right, in the form of the superior vetting occurring during 3rd party intervention. nowhere did i mention the shiver level, so now you are just downright lying, and i dont recall ever complaining about anything in this thread.





By the way how does it feel that I've had my dummy accounts creeping up your mariusnet leaderboard. must be very agonizing watching me dominate the server with my l33t skills.

[Pyro]

It was simply a misunderstanding. Since you didn't mention 3rd party stuff in the original post, Graydon likely thought you were just seeing things even after you mentioned TSG in a following post. Your posts on melee supposedly being altered and about VR, likely made Graydon think you were more prone to incorrect assumptions on default stuff having a higher vet max and more prone to make trollish posts.

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

Informational assumptions aside, I made no direct strike at anyone in this thread, but until I did my own observation, I didn't realize the source of the misunderstanding was the inclusion of the 3rd party tagset. Someone mentioned the heron (which there are no herons in TSG they are replaced by elven guards) caps out at 10 kills. Is this for the regular heron, heron guard hero, or what? Perhaps on the Shiver map, where the HGH's are used, they cap out at 10? Or maps like killing grounds.

[Pyro]

It was for the regular Heron Guard, but the HGH also has a max cap at 10 in the TSG Tagset. The Jman has 27. The Dwarf's vet cap is left alone, but the Dwarf Hero is set at 15. So if a map uses the same unit types that the TSG tagset modifies, that map will use the TSG tagset values as long as it is activated of course.

It appears that it doesn't only modify their vet max, but other aspects. For example the Heron Guard is set to start with 2 roots with room for up to 7. The default heron starts with 1 root with a max at 6. TSG's heron also attacks faster than the regular heron from the start. So it is possible the vet max isn't all that useful. Depending on their values there is only so much recovery time a vetted unit can lose before it is at its fastest possible speed, even if it isn't at the max vet value.

To view the tags, all you need is UnTag to disassemble plugins and Fear to look at the values and other settings of the tags. Fear will only look at the tags placed in the local folder.

[vinylrake]

Krok,My comment was trying to clear up what sounded to me like a misunderstanding/mis-assumption on your part about vetting.

But now I see that apparently you understood everything about vetting all along and were just trying to illuminate your superior understanding of vetting to the rest of us in the form of a n00b question. Very clever. You obviously realized we would reject you pronouncing something as truth, so instead of threatening us with your obviously superior intellect, you instead asked a disarming question we could debate and find the truth about together. Very subtle.

So sorry for not being more grateful.

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

jesus get a life. you don't have to overthink to understand me.