Zaktorious: Zaknafein 2, Mapmaking Community: 0

[Zaknafein]

...wow something is happening, nice!...

since Olong2 isn't responding, how about I challenge you Zak? (since I agree with most things Olong2 wrote)

1 vs 1 mapmaking duel (Zak vs Giz):

If I win: you'll remove all your own (and your teams) creations from the tain (and you wont upload them elsewhere), you'll write an apology aimed at all the mapmakers and the community for those creations (a decent 1, posted on various myth related sites), and you'll give up on mapmaking for good.

if you win: I'll remove all my maps and delete all unreleased semi-public resources, I'll write positive reviews for all of your (and your teams) maps (meaning I'll download/play all of em) and I will rate each 5 stars (and basically ruin the tain), and I'll never create a map again.

all we have to do is agree on a deadline, how the voting will work, and some minimal requirements for the maps... lets say a minimum of 1 solo or multi, with an original colormap, minimum of 40 mapactions, 1 new unit (collection), 1 new ingame model (geometry), 1 new special effect type thing, and all has to be made by a single person (no cheating).

Pretty sure you're going to decline, due to your inferior level of talent and creativity, but I thought I would give you a chance to back up all the bragging you do.

...Giz

I will accept your challenge if you agree to MY terms, since yours benefit you more than they would benefit me. I have already created far more plugins than you. In fact, if I win, I want ALL the resources you have worked on for myth at this point, forget about the reviewing my plugins.

What do I care if you never make another map? If you want me to accept we have to come up with a possible result that I would enjoy. Nor do I care to be impeded by your numerous rules, seeing as the regular myther only appreciates the quality of the end product, not that it was originally created by that mapmaker and took endless hours to fine tune.

[vinylrake]

...and took endless hours to fine tune.

Given some of your own statements about how quickly you have whipped out some of your projects I found this part amusing.

[Pyro]

...seeing as the regular myther only appreciates the quality of the end product, not that it was originally created by that mapmaker and took endless hours to fine tune.

VR, I think zak said that the regular myther only cares for the end product. That they do not care if it was made by the one (re-)releasing it and that it took a lot of time by the original maker. Not that Zak was claiming it took him a lot of time to modify the original content.

[GizmoHB]

Zak, first of all, I am willing to negotiate when it comes to the stakes, me handing over all my resources is up for debate...

I have to agree that the quantity of your work is greater than mine (released work that is, unreleased I don't know, I really don't know how one would judge that? amount of plugins? amount of unique collections and tags? hours spent?), yet I don't see how that benefits me more, I wish you had made far less plugins... your challenge to Olong2 was about him criticizing the creativity of your creations and you called him out to prove he could do better, it wasn't a duel to prove who could upload the most plugins...

The rules I proposed (even though short and incomplete) were an attempt to include most/all aspects of mapmaking (colormapping, scripting, effects, bitmap resource creation (collections for scenery/projectiles/units etc.) and in-game models (we could of course add more, sound?, pregame/postgame artwork? storyline?)), so the results could be fairly judged on all aspects separately, which is the only way to really figure out who the better mapmaker is (with the most talent/creativity). A simple popularity contest (aka getting your grandma to vote for you) is not an option since it really won't prove anything (and I simply don't have that many relatives left and i'm not a popular kid on facebook either)...

if you want to prove you're the better mapmaker (including all aspects) and show how creative/talented you are than lets work out the rules/stakes, otherwise just admit you're not talented/creative enough to beat me in a duel and go back to stealing peoples hard work...it's up to you...

...Giz

[vinylrake]

Ah interesting. That makes more sense.

Thanks for the interpretation.

[GizmoHB]

oh and Vinyl, I did think it through before I posted...

As far as stupid mapmaking contests go, it all depends on how you look at it, I only see good things:

1: the myth mapmaking community will say goodbye to either Zak or myself, no real loss for anyone.
2: there will be 2 new creations to play (if both are finished on time), and since the stakes are high, they're probably good maps.
3: there's a 50% chance you'll get to enjoy a Tain without Zaks creations, which would increase the overall map quality (and the % of maps that have readme's) tremendously.
4: there's a 50% chance there will be around 50? positive reviews added to the tain, which might be fun to read for you guys, yes the higher rating will slightly suck, but you could easily compensate for that if you disagree...

doesn't sound bad at all...

The goal of a mapmaking challenge should be to create more maps, not to remove maps from public download.

I can't find that anywhere in my myth manual... =)

...Giz

[Zaknafein]

In order for me to agree to this offer we have to agree on this:

"if Zak wins you said this: I'll remove all my maps and delete all unreleased semi-public resources, I'll write positive reviews for all of your (and your teams) maps (meaning I'll download/play all of em) and I will rate each 5 stars (and basically ruin the tain), and I'll never create a map again."

I would amend this and say you can create maps again, but before the competition starts you will reveal your numerous mapmaking tags you have painstakingly crafted over the years. Everything. Then, when I win, you will upload them all for me to download. I would also amend it to say you do not need to remove your two maps from the tain, or delete unreleased resources. I am trying to make myth a better place, not an emptier one. The reviews you will do are obviously necessary, though. You will also give Olong2 plugins a 1 star review.

"If Gizmo wins, Zak must do this: you'll remove all your own (and your teams) creations from the tain (and you wont upload them elsewhere), you'll write an apology aimed at all the mapmakers and the community for those creations (a decent 1, posted on various myth related sites), and you'll give up on mapmaking for good. "

Here is my counter offer. I will remove 75% of my plugins from the tain, and never upload them again. I will write an apology aimed at all the mapmakers and the community, on all relevant myth discussion sites. I will never upload another myth plugin again.


As far as the rules go you said this:
"all we have to do is agree on a deadline, how the voting will work, and some minimal requirements for the maps... lets say a minimum of 1 solo or multi, with an original colormap, minimum of 40 mapactions, 1 new unit (collection), 1 new ingame model (geometry), 1 new special effect type thing, and all has to be made by a single person (no cheating)."

I would say the voting is by popularity, seeing that there is significant bias involved if we allowed mapmakers to be judges of anything I produce. I can agree to the other terms, with the exception of the 40 mapactions, should I decide to make a multiplayer map.

[vinylrake]

2: there will be 2 new creations to play (if both are finished on time), and since the stakes are high, they're probably good maps.
...
4: there's a 50% chance there will be around 50? positive reviews added to the tain, which might be fun to read for you guys, yes the higher rating will slightly suck, but you could easily compensate for that if you disagree...

These are the only 2 positives and #2 is balanced out by losing a bunch of maps from the tain.

As for 1,3 and 5? I don't have a problem figuring out maps I want to avoid, and despite my dislike of plugins and maps with no readmes or credits, I'd rather have some new creations with incomplete/missing readmes than no new creations, so eliminating a bunch of maps from the Tain isn't a plus to me.

I don't need the Tain to only offer maps I like or approve of, that's what the ratings system is for. I'd rather everything be here so I can choose what to download and try.

I can't find that anywhere in my myth manual... =)

Then your manual is defective.

[GizmoHB]

I would amend this and say you can create maps again, but before the competition starts you will reveal your numerous mapmaking tags you have painstakingly crafted over the years. Everything. Then, when I win, you will upload them all for me to download. I would also amend it to say you do not need to remove your two maps from the tain, or delete unreleased resources. I am trying to make myth a better place, not an emptier one. The reviews you will do are obviously necessary, though. You will also give Olong2 plugins a 1 star review.

- better and empty aren't the opposite of each other...
- list all my resources is a pretty impossible task, since its in many unorganized folders on many old dusty harddrives, so would be uploading all of it, but if thats what you really want I can upload whatever I have on my current laptop (which is all the more recent stuff (last 4/5 years or so) (I could give you a filesize), which I havent promised to other people in case I quit mapmaking (which is 1 map))
- I won't give Olong2s plugins 1 star, I don't see how thats relevant at all, never even talked to the guy, or played his stuff...

"If Gizmo wins, Zak must do this: you'll remove all your own (and your teams) creations from the tain (and you wont upload them elsewhere), you'll write an apology aimed at all the mapmakers and the community for those creations (a decent 1, posted on various myth related sites), and you'll give up on mapmaking for good."

Here is my counter offer. I will remove 75% of my plugins from the tain, and never upload them again. I will write an apology aimed at all the mapmakers and the community, on all relevant myth discussion sites. I will never upload another myth plugin again.

does that include the maps by Zaks mapmaking team? (most of the maps are by the team aren't they?), I think 75% is low, keep the best 2 maps or plugins. You're also not allowed to have someone upload your maps for you in the future obviously (no clue how this could be arranged)...

As far as the rules go you said this:
"all we have to do is agree on a deadline, how the voting will work, and some minimal requirements for the maps... lets say a minimum of 1 solo or multi, with an original colormap, minimum of 40 mapactions, 1 new unit (collection), 1 new ingame model (geometry), 1 new special effect type thing, and all has to be made by a single person (no cheating)."

I would say the voting is by popularity, seeing that there is significant bias involved if we allowed mapmakers to be judges of anything I produce. I can agree to the other terms, with the exception of the 40 mapactions, should I decide to make a multiplayer map.

- ok, we'll change the 40 actions into 'must use some scripting', there is plenty you can script for multiplayer maps...
- I don't agree to a strict popularity vote, players (only myth players, not random other people, no clue how to filter those) should obviously have the gameplay vote (lets call that the popularity vote), but mapmakers should also get a say when it comes to the creation/usage of specific aspects of mapmaking, since they can judge the skill it takes (and if its new content in the first place)... I'd say it should be 50/50, and that should be arranged somehow...

all of this is becoming pretty complicated to organize, all I wanted was to get rid of you, and motivate myself to create/release a cool map, sheesh...

...Giz

[Zaknafein]

- better and empty aren't the opposite of each other...
- list all my resources is a pretty impossible task, since its in many unorganized folders on many old dusty harddrives, so would be uploading all of it, but if thats what you really want I can upload whatever I have on my current laptop (which is all the more recent stuff (last 4/5 years or so) (I could give you a filesize), which I havent promised to other people in case I quit mapmaking (which is 1 map))
- I won't give Olong2s plugins 1 star, I don't see how thats relevant at all, never even talked to the guy, or played his stuff...

If you aren't willing agree to my terms you are more than able to back down. Sorry if you're scared of losing to me. I need all of your tags, from every recess of your hard drives. That also includes things you've uploaded.

does that include the maps by Zaks mapmaking team? (most of the maps are by the team aren't they?), I think 75% is low, keep the best 2 maps or plugins. You're also not allowed to have someone upload your maps for you in the future obviously (no clue how this could be arranged)...

I will keep 4 plugins.

- ok, we'll change the 40 actions into 'must use some scripting', there is plenty you can script for multiplayer maps...
- I don't agree to a strict popularity vote, players (only myth players, not random other people, no clue how to filter those) should obviously have the gameplay vote (lets call that the popularity vote), but mapmakers should also get a say when it comes to the creation/usage of specific aspects of mapmaking, since they can judge the skill it takes (and if its new content in the first place)... I'd say it should be 50/50, and that should be arranged somehow...

all of this is becoming pretty complicated to organize, all I wanted was to get rid of you, and motivate myself to create/release a cool map, sheesh...

...Giz

I don't agree to the mapmaking community having a separate say from regular mythers. If they want to vote they can vote like the rest of the community. In a review.

[vinylrake]

Is is just me, or does anyone else find it hilarious that Zak (a mapmaker who has sometimes been accused of using other people's work without proper attribution) is making one of the make-or-break stipulations of a contest with Giz that if Zak wins Giz has to give Zak all his tags/creations/works-in-progress?

Isn't that kind of funny?

[fildred13]

Is is just me, or does anyone else find it hilarious that Zak (a mapmaker who has sometimes been accused of using other people's work without proper attribution) is making one of the make-or-break stipulations of a contest with Giz that if Zak wins Giz has to give Zak all his tags/creations/works-in-progress?

Isn't that kind of funny?

I giggled.

[Baak]

I've been at the wrong end of 1-star reviews before, and in my case they were extremely flippant, so I know they can be a real pain in the ass.

I see much more value in a simple "like" system where people say they like a plugin or they say nothing. If your plugin has zero likes, then that says something without giving single reviews so much power in such a statistically small sample.


With this in mind and not knowing (nor wanting to know) all the ins and outs of the issues between Zak and Olong2, I really dislike the idea of people removing stuff from the Myth community over something like this.

So why don't you guys make this contest something where the results add to the community? Personally I'd like to see the maps made be 100% new as far as colormap, etc., with at least one mesh using only Bungie units and one mesh using any units from Bungie or third parties (i.e. could be all third-party or a mix). Third-party stuff has to be used with permission (if the creators are still around or can be contacted) and due credit given.


Zak: I'd love to see another map like Remnants of Harrenhall. That was very fun imo and I was only sorry we didn't get to play it more back in the day.

Olong2: No idea what your stuff is like, but let's see what you can come up with.

Then the community can "vote" somehow and a winner is declared -- but both maps stay and all work by both authors stays. Basically the winner gets bragging rights, and I would say only if there is a clear winner. Has to be by some margin (at least 60/40 perhaps) otherwise it is declared a tie.

[ozone]

I win.

[Zaknafein]

With this in mind and not knowing (nor wanting to know) all the ins and outs of the issues between Zak and Olong2, I really dislike the idea of people removing stuff from the Myth community over something like this.

This was my original proposition, only requiring a sacrifice in pride of the loser. Now that Gizmo is championing Olong2's cause, I am struggling to continue to make this a win for the community regardless of winner of this competition, but I continue to try. I think my terms that I have given are the best I can do.