Bowman question

[SamualACarver]

You would think that I would know this after I have played for so many years. But I cant remember.

When having a Bowman duel how can you select multiple Bowman to attack? Like with melle units you can either have them focus their attack on 1 unit or have them attack multiple units. I cant do that with Bowmen. I can only get them to all attack 1 enemy Bowman. I have tried shift clicking and double clicking nothing works. Was it ever possible to do that? I cant remember. If it isnt possible then I think that it would make a nice feature for a future update.

While thinking about that I thought of another feature that might be cool. That would be being able to use a selecting box (the one you click and drag) to choose enemy units to attack. You could like hold shift while you dragged the selection box. This could make a big change in game play. Myself I think it would only enhance game play and give players more control. Which would add another level of skill.

Sam TB

[iron]

You can't do it, and no it was never possible. The Myth engine treats "Melee" units differently AI-wise than it does "Missile" units. A Melee unit will aggressively respond to an enemy - even if it has a distance attack (such as the bre'Unor) it will steadily close the distance till its swinging its sword or club or whatever, and a group of melee will target enemies in a group rather than focus on the unit you click.

Missile units will tend to hold their ground, even back off from an enemy in order to have room to shoot, and it'll always target the single enemy you click on.

There's exceptions to this rule - missile units _can_ attack multiple targets in the way you want, however this is a mapmaking tweak introduced in one of the updates & needs the mapmaker to activate if for his units. Its not something that's available with standard myth units.

[SamualACarver]

Thanks Iron, I couldnt remember. I have a map I worked on years ago "Gimble Challenge" (which I plan to start working on again) I had the Bowmen there can attack multiple targets. It is set up random. It actually gives them a bit of an edge. It is harder to dodge. I wasnt sure if it was possible normally.

I have another question. What is the difference between retreat and scatter? They seem to do the same thing. Shouldnt retreat make the units flee in the opposite direction from what they are facing?

Thanks Sam

[Vindicator]

Being able to band select enemy units to attack would be F-ing cool as hell and very usefull! 1.8 make it happen.

[GodzFire]

*snaps fingers* DONE!





......wait what? Oh, it's not that easy I guess :-/

[iron]

Well, actually it would be that easy. Whether its wise is another matter.

[Melekor]

While thinking about that I thought of another feature that might be cool. That would be being able to use a selecting box (the one you click and drag) to choose enemy units to attack. You could like hold shift while you dragged the selection box. This could make a big change in game play. Myself I think it would only enhance game play and give players more control. Which would add another level of skill.

Actually, this feature would reduce the skill not increase it. It would make make skillful arcing into something that takes a single click which any newb can do. That'd make it a great feature for someone like me, but not so great for someone who has the skill to arc properly with the current system.

[SamualACarver]

While thinking about that I thought of another feature that might be cool. That would be being able to use a selecting box (the one you click and drag) to choose enemy units to attack. You could like hold shift while you dragged the selection box. This could make a big change in game play. Myself I think it would only enhance game play and give players more control. Which would add another level of skill.

Actually, this feature would reduce the skill not increase it. It would make make skillful arcing into something that takes a single click which any newb can do. That'd make it a great feature for someone like me, but not so great for someone who has the skill to arc properly with the current system.

I disagree with you on this and I'll explain why. First though I think that this would probably have to be a settings option like Vets or Over Head map. Then the developers would have to decide if it would be worth the work.

Anyway why I think it would involve more skill is that it would add another attack option. I am talking more so about band selecting enemies than shift clicking to attack all near units of a type. The more options and control you give to players the more skill and tactics that is added to the game. Instead of normal Bowman all attacking one unit you would also have the option of sending a volley of arrows vs other Bowmen or melee. In a Bowman duel you could either focus all your Bowman on a single Bowman or the whole group. Now you have 2 ways to attack. It is going to take more skill to use the additional options and also more skill defending against other Bowmen. So whatever way you think it would make things easier to attack it would also make it harder to defend thus also taking more skill. This is also more realistic to what a real life Bowmen duel would be. They wouldnt all every time focus on a single enemy. If you have 5 Bowmen you could have 2 on the left focus on your opponents right side Bowmen then the other 3 could focus on 1 of the remaining Bowmen. Or any sort of combo. You could make 1 attack where all Bowmen focus on 1 enemy then the next attack they fire off a volley at the whole group and you could steadily chose which you wanted to do. This would add a whole new level of control options and therefore skill. Yes you can individually attack unit for unit. Ive tried it but it doesnt work the best because you cant individually select each one of your units and individually each enemy units plus dodge at the same time even using presets. This would also apply to attacking melee making it possible to send a volley of arrows into a group of melee. Then think about what you could do with fire arrows.

Then to allow band selection with melee would also be a nice addition. With band selection you wouldnt only have the option of selecting all the units of a certain type, if you are fighting a mix of melee. You could also band select for instance the melee in the front of the attacking group. This would help with units walking past enemies to attack enemies in the back of the pack. They would always attack a unit in the group you band selecting. And you could still micro individual melee units.

This would like I said add a whole new set of options and control to Myth which is one of the things that makes Myth so cool IS the amount of control. The more control and options the better. Also if it was allowed as a game option then if people didnt like it they wouldnt have to play it that way. I think though as people got used to it (I know some Mythers hate any change) and realized the extra amount of control and attacking options they would like it. Main thing it depends on the developers. They would be the ones to have to do the work and they know how much it would be. So ultimately it is up to them to decide if it is worth it. I think though the more control and options that can be added to the game the better to keep Myth evolving.

My 2 cents
Sam

Edit: Another thing if band selecting would be more or too difficult to do to be worth it. I think being able to select multiple units of a type with Bowmen would be although not as good, it would still add options and make for better game play. The Bowmen on Gimble Challenge can select multiple targets (its done randomly) and it does make it harder to fight them when you have 1 arrow headed to each Bowmen instead of all on one. Then the next attack they may focus all on one making it hard to know what is going to be coming at you. The main thing it does gives you 2 attack options instead of one. The more options the better I think.

[Melekor]

Try asking the same question on the mwc forum to see if there is any support for the idea from competitive players. If there is, well.. no promises but I'd be more inclined to add the feature than I am currently.

[SamualACarver]

Hey Melekor thanks for considering the idea. I didnt know you were one of the developers.

I will ask at the MWC forums. Before I do though I want to know for sure what you would consider doing so that I am asking about the right thing over there.

Are you talking about allowing selection boxes to select enemies to attack? Or just the Bowmen or all Artillery being able to target multiple enemies? Also would it be an option that the players could turn off and on? Like I said I have no idea how much work would be involved. So while the selection box option I think would be best and give the most options since it would apply to Artillery (having that option would be good for dwarfs also)and Melee. Being able to select multiple targets with shift or double clicking with Bowmen would be really nice too. You all would be the ones doing the work so you would know which would be harder and worth the pay off.

Again thanks for considering it. I think it would be very cool.

Sam

[Pyro]

He isn't considering adding either of those as his posts seem to imply. He stated he would be more inclined to do it if the feedback you receive was similar to what you expect it to be. Basically, just run those ideas over at the MWC forum and don't state Magma is considering those ideas because Magma is not at the present time from the looks of it and that can always change of course. See how that goes and who knows what will result from it.

[Melekor]

Sorry if I seem to be implying anything that I'm not Pyro. Allow me to clarify my position:

I do like the attack selection box idea in theory, and it should be relatively easy to code too. But, it would affect reg gameplay in a big way and it's not at all clear to me whether that would be a good thing or not. Magma has received a lot of criticism in the past for smaller changes than that, so the feature would have to be seen to be broadly supported for us to even consider adding it. Even then, it's potentially a divisive issue. It's unfortunate but these are the politics of an old game with a small diehard community.

And yes making it an option is technically possible, although it would be quite weird in this case: why can't I attack drag? Oh, right, the host option must be off. And having it as an option doesn't prevent it from being divisive anyways - which setting is used in tourneys for example? would people argue with the host about which setting to use? So, not a big fan of the option idea.

So my current feeling is this idea won't likely happen. But it couldn't hurt to put it out there and see what happens. If everyone seems to love the idea, we can always reevaluate.

[Pyro]

I see, my mistake then. At least, I was close. I thought you were not interested when in fact you were. I just took that as a way to get Sam to see how some other mythers would react to such ideas.

[iron]

Yeah its a path we trod down back with 1.4, and we've been trying to rectify it ever since. If its difficult convincing veteran players that gameplay bugs should be fixed, consider how much more dangerous it is to introduce "enhancements".

[SamualACarver]

Yea I understand guys. I know there are a lot of people that hate any changes at all. Then there are some that I think just like to be difficult and stubborn. I think it would be a great addition, so I will see what sort of response I get from he MWC forums. I wont mention that it is being considered, since at this time it is not. I am glad you told me more about your feelings on it. I didnt want to put anything out there that you wouldnt want me to or anything that could cause you grief. So we will see. I know how some Mythers react to changes.

Thanks
Sam