My Thorough and Professional Thoughts on 1.8

[Platinum]

I've only used it for a few minutes, but this thread will be dedicated to having the greatest, most analytical Myther go over the new features of 1.8 and give you my thoughts and opinions. I truly appreciate all the work that has gone into this, but there are a few things I feel should be addressed.

Pros:

1. I like that a lot of the changes are optional, especially concerning the controls. I don't think I'm going to change to the quick-selection feature of just pressing a number to recall a preset, and having to F(or designated key) to change formations. Muscle memory plays a big role in causing someone to switch to this feature or not.

2. Graphics features are optional. I personally have used the motion interpolation with other tagsets and plugins and I'm just not a fan of it. Myth has never been super smooth, and it just changes the feel too much for me. Thanks for the options. The sound fixes are also great.

3. Guard feature for non-melee units. This might be the best fix... it now makes the guard feature relevant again, so sick of those arcs not just staying in place on the wall!

4. Zoom out to view larger map size in films. This speaks for itself. Totally awesome. Glad it wasn't put in for regular gameplay though, but some maps do kinda suck where the terrain is higher up and your peripheral vision is cut... but that's all in the game!

5. Haven't tried the new gametype, but I'm sure its awesome. Any way we can add a "Kill Count" gametype? It would essentially run very similar to Body Count, but it counts kills instead of damage, so it does in essence change the strategy and integrity of the gametype... just something to consider. Only thing would be if it would record kills caused by an explosion that caused something else to blow up... i.e. a satchel charge causes the death and not the dorf bottle.

6. Rehost/Restart feature is great. Much time and agony saved. Only thing is, can any game be subject to be instantly rehosted/restarted, even if 10 minutes into gameplay? I guess its no different than host dropping, just wondering.

7. Being able to scroll through plugins instead of extra clicking and hunting and you can see the maps available. Only thing is those screens are pretty small, guess that'll take some getting used to.

8. I have a good CPU so I haven't really noticed any improvement in gameplay graphics, but I have gotten the hall of mirrors effect quite often, so I look forward to that being gone.

9. Navigating is even faster, which I didn't think was possible because 1.7.2 was fast as it was, so props to making it even faster navigating around the screens, etc.

10. Screenshot support- Haven't tried but this is awesome that it'll automatically save into a folder. Assuming this works in games and in viewing films too?

11. Vanguard fix

Cons:

1. This one I am not okay with. After 10 kills, the status bar kill count becomes a number. I want my status bar filled up with those skulls or shields before it maxes out. C'mon guys, please don't make this mandatory. I've asked before about increasing the 250+ kills to keep the kill count going, but I think the answer I got was that it was not possible.

2. Damage values - Haven't tried them out yet, but I've dreaded these coming. It's going to give the game a whole different feel, and I think Body Count games will suffer because of this. I also think tournament statistics and ratio rankings will not be as good either. Where did the original values come from anyway? They are what, 2.5x what they are supposed to be?

3. I need to do some more research but exactly how many of these new controls are auto built in? I don't want to be playing and something happen that wouldn't have happened before with those key sequences. The formation one concerns me.. double tapping a formation to change in place? I have a feeling this will be a hinder to gameplay more than it is worth.

4. What happened to being the master of your own destiny? Too many shortcuts to being able to control units more quickly and more effectively. Alt+# should always be the way to play with presets. The alternative of it makes it harder to select a formation, but this option should not be introduced at all.




Overall, a few gripes, the first one being the most important that I will absolutely not switch to 1.8 if it stands. It was never an issue to begin with, why change it now? Myth should remain as natural as possible while adding only OPTIONS to change features and gameplay. Please don't undermine the integrity or the skill level of the game by giving some players the option to play in an 'easier' control setup when the rest of us who have played for a decade+ will not change how we play.


More testing and reviews to come.

[punkUser]

Only thing is, can any game be subject to be instantly rehosted/restarted, even if 10 minutes into gameplay? I guess its no different than host dropping, just wondering.

Right, it's basically the same as dropping. i.e. there are no limitations, but the partial game score will still be recorded by the metaserver.

7. Being able to scroll through plugins instead of extra clicking and hunting and you can see the maps available. Only thing is those screens are pretty small, guess that'll take some getting used to.

Yeah there's only so much screen real-estate available at 640x480, but it's still an improvement I think

10. Screenshot support- Haven't tried but this is awesome that it'll automatically save into a folder. Assuming this works in games and in viewing films too?

Yes it works at any time, and you can even save "mega" (8k) screen shots too for fun. Check this one out for instance (with interactive zooming):
http://zoom.it/XAIQ

I also think tournament statistics and ratio rankings will not be as good either. Where did the original values come from anyway? They are what, 2.5x what they are supposed to be?

That's an odd reaction, because I greatly improved the tracking of statistics in Myth specifically for tournament play. Damage received for instance was basically useless before, whereas now it is tracked properly. And yes, the values being multiplied by 2.56 before was a clear bug. It was inconsistent between what it showed in the endgame dialog, what the metaserver showed and what your overall stats showed... it needed to be normalized for consistency as part of the cleanup and there was a clear right and wrong path. The new values are actually much more intuitive since they are equal to the unit trading values of the units, rather than arbitrarily multiplied by 2.56.

Nothing about the gameplay has changed here, just the fix to the incorrect scaling of the displayed damages in one place; other places (metaserver, etc) were already properly scaled.

[PS: The damage values are now tracked in even higher precision internally, so the possibility of a tie in BC for instance is very low, as fractional precision is tracked now too.]

4. What happened to being the master of your own destiny? Too many shortcuts to being able to control units more quickly and more effectively. Alt+# should always be the way to play with presets. The alternative of it makes it harder to select a formation, but this option should not be introduced at all.

It's just an option for folks that are more used to other RTS game control schemes or that select presets more often than formations. It's also a nice option in that it doesn't ever involve "holding" keys for an arbitrary amount of wall clock time. Totally optional though and off by default, so I'm not sure why it would bother you.

[GHOST®]

4. What happened to being the master of your own destiny? Too many shortcuts to being able to control units more quickly and more effectively. Alt+# should always be the way to play with presets. The alternative of it makes it harder to select a formation, but this option should not be introduced at all.

Key werd in your critic there is *OPTION*. You donut have to use it, and it doesn't mean a player will have an advantage over another. I for one will enjoy being able to us 5 - 0 for presets now, as before i could never reach that far. Formations however are just as easily controled from the control bar, so i am not affected by the xtra step to choose one. Beyond that, nothing changes in a negative manner as you seem to imply, none that i can see at least ??

[GodzFire]

1. This one I am not okay with. After 10 kills, the status bar kill count becomes a number. I want my status bar filled up with those skulls or shields before it maxes out. C'mon guys, please don't make this mandatory. I've asked before about increasing the 250+ kills to keep the kill count going, but I think the answer I got was that it was not possible.

Overall, a few gripes, the first one being the most important that I will absolutely not switch to 1.8 if it stands.

lol wow really? This is your make or break item? The answer you got is the truth, there is no way to increase the kill count beyond 250. It's not that they don't want to, it's that they can't, at least not without doing a shitload of coding changes.

If anything, this change makes it more fair to everyone who players, since there were some people who had much larger monitor resolutions and could see a lot more shields/skulls than others.

Anyway, this change was necessary as the default bar at the top of the screen is a single size now, regardless of what resolution you have, everyone gets the same bar. Not only does it make UI coding for it easier, it makes editing and updating interfaces so much quicker since you only have to fix one resolution and not 15.

[punkUser]

If anything, this change makes it more fair to everyone who players, since there were some people who had much larger monitor resolutions and could see a lot more shields/skulls than others.

Yeah It's pretty unworkable at 2560x1600... you can't reasonably count them all. I wouldn't be opposed to showing both the row and then the number bracketed or something, but I'm also fine with the current situation.

[Platinum]

1. This one I am not okay with. After 10 kills, the status bar kill count becomes a number. I want my status bar filled up with those skulls or shields before it maxes out. C'mon guys, please don't make this mandatory. I've asked before about increasing the 250+ kills to keep the kill count going, but I think the answer I got was that it was not possible.

Overall, a few gripes, the first one being the most important that I will absolutely not switch to 1.8 if it stands.

lol wow really? This is your make or break item? The answer you got is the truth, there is no way to increase the kill count beyond 250. It's not that they don't want to, it's that they can't, at least not without doing a shitload of coding changes.

If anything, this change makes it more fair to everyone who players, since there were some people who had much larger monitor resolutions and could see a lot more shields/skulls than others.

Anyway, this change was necessary as the default bar at the top of the screen is a single size now, regardless of what resolution you have, everyone gets the same bar. Not only does it make UI coding for it easier, it makes editing and updating interfaces so much quicker since you only have to fix one resolution and not 15.

Okay well thanks for the clarification. I was enjoying seeing all those shields and skulls lined up across my monitor. I could fit about 100 of those. Does the same apply for in-game chat? Some people can type huge lines on big monitors, resolutions, etc.

So just to clarify, depending on resolution, is how many shields/skulls will display? Or everyone will be the same as far as all the time in any resolution?



And to amend my original post, the make or break item that I have come to NOT like, is the double tap formation feature. Can this please be an option-only check box in preferences?

[Platinum]

Anyways, here's a suggestion for the new preset feature.

I find it a hassle to press F+ number key to change formation. I do not play with bottom bar. That takes too much time too. Why not double tap the number to select formation? Tap 1 once and get your archers, tap '5' twice and put them in a box.

[punkUser]

I find it a hassle to press F+ number key to change formation. I do not play with bottom bar. That takes too much time too. Why not double tap the number to select formation? Tap 1 once and get your archers, tap '5' twice and put them in a box.

If you're talking about when alternate presets is enabled, double-tap is already used to select-and-center. This is consistent with other RTS games, which is one of the design goals for the alternate presets.

And really, it's strange at first, but you get used to f+# fairly quickly for formations. Give it time.

[Platinum]

No sorry I'll stick to the old way if that's what you got to offer. By the way, the feedback is in from many other players... double tapping a number and a formation automatically sprouting is already causing gameplay issues.

Whats with the center-screen trading? Its annoying, and less convenient. Everyone else agrees.

I'm also noticing the camera positioning actually shows LESS of the screen in 1.8 compared to the same view in 1.7.2. There is about an inch of the top cut off, and the rear is only slightly more visible in 1.7.2.

OK I FOUND IT. THE BIGGEST REASON YET: I CANNOT BACK CLICK ON THE TOP STATUS BAR TO SELECT WHERE I WANT MY UNITS TO GO. In other words, I used to be able to put my mouse cursor to the highest spot in the screen and click to get my units going, and now I can't do that because it blocks it off. This was attempted to be fixed in an older plugin and was removed because it was also given poor feedback.

[Soukie]

Wow,
You are a smart person. I read your whole remarks. Thank you.

[punkUser]

No sorry I'll stick to the old way if that's what you got to offer.

No issues, that's why it's an option. I fully expect most folks to stick with the old setup simply due to familiarity, but the alternates arguably make more sense for players coming from other RTS games.

double tapping a number and a formation automatically sprouting is already causing gameplay issues.

So... don't double-tap a number? It's not exactly something you should be doing accidentally... I would have sympathy if it was a command that might be spammed or something but it always has to be paired with a move command, so you shouldn't be mashing formation keys ever anyways.

I'm also confused... you say double-tapping producing formations is an issue but you suggested that it work that way in alternate presets mode? That's less of a good idea, since in alternate presets mode mashing a key to select a preset is far more common/useful than mashing a formations key that requires a paired move command.

Whats with the center-screen trading? Its annoying, and less convenient. Everyone else agrees.

It's because of how the new scale-able status bar works; Mel can explain more, but it needs to be "undocked" now. Given that, there's no really compelling reason it shouldn't be in the center since it is effectively a modal dialog box (you can't do anything until you fill it out). This sounds more like "it's different and therefore bad" to me than any actual reason, but please feel free to clarify.

I'm also noticing the camera positioning actually shows LESS of the screen in 1.8 compared to the same view in 1.7.2. There is about an inch of the top cut off, and the rear is only slightly more visible in 1.7.2.

Screenshot from the same save game position in both versions please? Not aware of any changes to the view area.

Clicking "under" the status bar is an interesting note - not sure if that was an intentional change, so thanks for bringing it up. If you could be a bit more constructive in your tone though it would be helpful...

[Platinum]

Ok so to confirm, I do not want the double-tap feature standard. Its never going to be useful. If you have the units selected, and you want to move them, you select the formation and click. Or, make it Shift+Number or F+ number. Sometimes I double select presets to make sure I have the right one and even with holding alt it will register as a formation change. When you have caps lock on and can see all friendly units highlighted, you need to recall a preset twice sometimes to make sure you have it because you are looking for the brighter highlighted units.

Alas, I'll save you the jargon of how I use to talk about how I myth and just keep it simple, please get rid of the double tap feature.

Negate my suggestion regarding the other options as I don't intend to use them anyway.

Okay, but having it in the center obstructs view. Can you at least place it undocked at the top of the screen, right below the status bar? Maybe even put it top left corner since no trading box ever has more than 8 to choose from, or 2 columns of trading points. But in the middle is just... in the middle of the view and you are trying to see what units you already have, and what you would like to get.

Screenshots in process.

[Platinum]

1.7.2: http://i.imgur.com/rnfrqQy.jpg?1


1.8: http://i.imgur.com/gk7fYd6.jpg?1


Looks like in the process of scaling the map to more accurately reflect what is on the screen, the dimensions got chopped off a bit. Side to side looks dead on, but look how much more you can see forward with 1.7, and only very slightly can you see more at the bottom with 1.8.

[punkUser]

Looks like in the process of scaling the map to more accurately reflect what is on the screen, the dimensions got chopped off a bit. Side to side looks dead on, but look how much more you can see forward with 1.7, and only very slightly can you see more at the bottom with 1.8.

Oh, that's just the whole thing being slightly shifted (vertically). I believe this is so that toggling the status bar on/off no longer results in the screen "jumping". The total area you are seeing is still roughly the same, it is just panned slightly from the default starting view. Press F6 to toggle the status bar on/off (or enable interface transparency) to see what I mean.

The frustum indicator changing is because in 1.7.2 it was simply a very rough approximation. In 1.8 it was vastly improved and now very accurately shows the area that is actually in view. This was particularly important to represent now that extended zoom is present in films.

Sometimes I double select presets to make sure I have the right one and even with holding alt it will register as a formation change.

Good point on holding alt. Seems like in that case we should definitely ignore it as a double-tap.

Okay, but having it in the center obstructs view.

View of what? That's really my point... there's nothing to see until you choose your units anyways since they don't update until you click "okay" regardless.

Anyways I could see shifting it a bit higher on the screen if people prefer, but it's desirable to keep it off the top bar for the reasons that I mentioned. Maybe centered on the top 1/3 subdivision of the screen instead of half?

[GHOST®]

2 things, Everyone's desires cannot be catered to, and i do know that all considerations and great care are taken before any changes are made to Myth.

With that in mind, i must say, not a single one of Platinums *items* seems to be anything more than *he doesn't like it* issues as far as i've read. i have yet to hear anything reasonable as to why his suggestions should be taken seriously. All his *cons* are optional items, or don't effect anything except cosmetically (ie unit trading in center of screen, new game UI changes, etc)

Personally it sounds to me like nothing more than argumentative gripes against any change/advancement to Myth and just a whole lot of demands/whining for how he wants Myth to stay or be. i would also note that just saying 'lots of others' doesn't lend any weight to anyone's words. Have those plethora of people come post their concerns themselves if these things are so BAD, troublesome, or game play changing that they wont be able to beat up on nOObs anymore and therefore will quit playing myth.

As you are, (yet another), self proclaimed *Myth Expert*, i would have hoped you could provide better feedback on the 1.8 public beta other than your personal likes/dislikes list and a set of demands of how myth must be in order for you to keep playing it. If a single double tap *option* is a deal breaker for you, then i say enjoy playing 1.7.2, or whatever older version you're clinging to, the rest of us will adjust, accept, and even embrace the changes as we move forward into the future with our favorite game.