Cid needs encouragement. - Topic 800? No shit!

[:) Da Cid (: McCl]

Not all Shades were Avatara.... some Shades were just other non-Avatara magic using characters.

That's just an assumption, isn't it? You don't actually know.

-TGP-

[Lugas]

Some Shades were just Heron Guards like Kyhalahyne!

[Tireces]

there were avataras outside of the nine, correct? for example there could have been 50+ avataras in the world of myth but only 9 of them were members of the nine?

Indeed. Mazzarin wasn't one of the Nine, but he was the first Avatara. So yes there are more than 9 Avatara in the Myth history. Just that in the time of TFL story only nine were around and were the leaders of the Light.

There could be more than 9 memeber of The Nine
Do u remember The Black Company and Circle of 18 - they rucruited new members when some1 died. During last battle none from original The 18 was alive.

Murgen: Bad news my Lord.
Alric: Yes, what is it ?
Murgen: Fallen killed Cailleac Bheur so we are The Eight right now.
Alric: @#$@#$ @# $@#$#@$@#$ @#$@#$$#@!
Murgen: There is a skilled warrior among our ranks, talented in dream magics. His name is Rabican.
Alric: Lets check him.

[Pyro]

Not all Shades were Avatara.... some Shades were just other non-Avatara magic using characters.

That's just an assumption, isn't it? You don't actually know.

-TGP-

If you mean Bungie stuff isn't concrete for information than I guess the following is useless:

(Taken from Myth@Bungie.Org)

Shades

The ressurected corpses of long-dead sorcerors bound to the Fallen Lords and used as conduits for their magic.

Passages From The Game:

"A house gutted by fire, a well poisoned with carrion, what had been sheep in the morning spread like a thick jam against the long wall of the barn..."
-Shade Flavor Text, Myth TFL

"... and it was said of Sciron that his hatred for the living was so intense, his shadow would go out and kill while he slept and not return until next he awoke."
-Shade Flavor Text, Myth TFL

The reanimated corpses of long-dead sorcerers, Shades take great pains to avoid running water (since they can only cross it by using a bridge) and act as a conduit for the evil magic of the Fallen Lords.
-Shade Description, Cast of Characters, Myth TFL Manual

"...Turquine so mistreated his subjects that even his personal guard abandoned him... he agreed to endure the indescribable tortures of the Fallen that he might have his revenge."
-Shade Flavor Text, Myth II

"...those that Phelot deemed unsuitable for use as thrall... were given to the ghols, who hacked their limbs and chewed their flesh... this is how he dealt with the people of Avon's Grove."
-Shade Flavor Text, Myth II


And as to what Lugas said...

Some Shades were just Heron Guards like Kyhalahyne!

Murgen the author of that plugin used the collection of a Heron Guard... that doesn't mean that there is a connection between Shades and Heron Guards. A Heron Guard isn't considered a sorcerer. Murgen probably didn't want to use the standard Shade collection.

So Cid do you still think it's an assumption?

[William Wallet]

Hmmmm. It never says that 'they weren't fallen Avatara' does it? It just says sorcerers or whatever.

"...Turquine so mistreated his subjects that even his personal guard abandoned him... he agreed to endure the indescribable tortures of the Fallen that he might have his revenge."
-Shade Flavor Text, Myth II"

In fact, this makes me all the more certain that he was an Avatara. None of those give any indication that the Shade were once just average-joe sorcerors.

I cannot, with a straight face, say that "yes - all Shade are fallen Avatara", but in those flavours/manual texts you've posted, there's no evidence to say that they're not.

Besides, I kind of like the idea of Shade being fallen Avatara. Adds insult to the injury, don't you think?

[Pyro]

I'm not saying fallen Avatara were never turned to Shades... but not all Shades were fallen Avatara. It's like saying all rectangles are squares... when they are not... BUT all squares ARE rectangles.

[William Wallet]

"It's like saying all rectangles are squares... when they are not... BUT all squares ARE rectangles."

(sotto the villain out of BASEketball)

AAEEEEEEHH?????

Rectangles are rectangles, squares are squares.

The point I was making is that your post, bracketed by:

"If you mean Bungie stuff isn't concrete for information than I guess the following is useless:"

and:

"So Cid do you still think it's an assumption? "

Did nothing to prove your case. It proved that Shades were magicians or sorcerors. It didn't prove or disprove that they had to be Avatara first.
If there's more definite proof, then please offer it up. But my colleague Cid was justified in saying that our speculations were merely that - speculatory, and with no real definite evidence as yet.
It's the same as the 'other' Fallen Lords, or the 'other' members of the Nine - no one knows!

[Pyro]

The square and rectangle thing might not be the best example for the ones that don't know their geometry.... but oh well.

Will, tell me would an Avatara be evil? As in join the Fallen on their own will and such or do bad things to the Light's side. This is to get the base of the shade/avatara thing.

We agree that Shades and Avatara are powerful magic users. I say some Shades were Avatara but not all. You say there is no evidense (or not as much) for either. So I want to know what you think is an Avatara. Hence the earlier question.

As to what I said in the earlier reply... why say "long-dead sorcerors" instead of long-dead Avatara? Avatara are sorcerors... but are all sorcerors Avatara?


And yes squares are rectangles!

[William Wallet]

"Will, tell me would an Avatara be evil?"

To start with - no! Otherwise they wouldn't employ the guy would they?

"So I want to know what you think is an Avatara."

I would say, a powerful magician or something that is sanctioned by the Nine. I'd assume that if he ever got powerful enough they'd offer him a spot in the Nine, or if he were evil enough they'd give him the smackdown.

[Tireces]

Dispreal Dream was most powerfull avatara spell.
They probably didnt reveal its secret 2 non-members.
And look, all TFL shades use disperals.

There could be disperal-less shades tho

[A-Red]

Will, tell me would an Avatara be evil? As in join the Fallen on their own will and such or do bad things to the Light's side. This is to get the base of the shade/avatara thing.

They don't have to have been evil in life. The evidence you've provided yourself states that they have been "bound to the Fallen Lords." I take this to mean that this avatara, or sorceror or whatever, has been defeated by the Fallen Lord and then resurrected as his/her slave. In that case, it doesn't matter what they were like when they were alive, because they're being forced to do evil things. Assuming that a Shade still has its intelligence (which it seems to), but not its willpower, that really does add insult to injury.

A-Red

[:) Da Cid (: McCl]

Happy 200th A-Red!

Anywho, I think the whole Avatara = Shade thing is cool. As Will said, it makes it that much worse ethically. All the Shades you meet were, in life, loyal to the Light, and all the enemy you face were the loyal members. Not just some random dudes.

-TGP-

[Gleep]

Not all shades were former good guys, but I do think any powerful magic user good or evil, not necessarily an avatara could be turned into one. Maybe all shades don't have a dispersal attack. Mapmakers could make some interesting new attacks for shades and maybe someone could model up a different collection or two. My biggest conern about the shades, is why they don't carry spells they died knowing. I know myth avatara haven't had the widest range of spells and neither did the shades, but they should. Myth makes it sound like all avatara know a lot of arcane knowledge, yet that only have a dispersal dream? Granted it's a powerful spell, but shouldn't they have something else? I say bungie was just lazy and didn't want to make all those spells and attacks, and that every avatara should have a range of spells to choose from. Then when they are focred into undead servitude they carry that knowledge into death to serve their dark master.

[William Wallet]

I say bungie was just lazy and didn't want to make all those spells and attacks, and that every avatara should have a range of spells to choose from.

But you see Gleep, I don't actually think it was laziness on their part. It's a gameplay decision, and one aimed at the lowest common denominator. When I see a blue shade teleport 30 yards in front of my army, I don't want to have to think through a list of 6 spells (however fancy and creative they might be) and choose my course of action.
I think it's something done to keep things intuitive. You see a shade, you scatter your melee. You see a wight using Bungie's suicide script, you walk towards it, then away, and he'll pop.

It's our job as mapmakers I think, to expand upon the abilities of the Avatara/Shade, we all know they *have* these things, but I genuinely believe Bungie was wise to omit this stuff back in the day. It really would have confused things to have a SwissArmyUnit that could throw *anything* at you.

[William Wallet]

And besides I like to imagine the 'other' possibilities of the Nine. I always thought it'd be wicked if Murgen could morph into a lion or some other such animal, in a direct mirror of what Soulblighter does with the crow thing. What's more, I could easily do this effect by using the lion included with Poser 5. Hahha.