Hi-Res units ambition.

[Pyro]

I'd be interested to see a shot from the rear.

You make me sick!


Yeah excellent work. I can't think of anything else to say.

[vinylrake]

Way back in the dark ages, VistaCartel (in their sheep unit tutorial) said the unit render angle was "about 30 degrees". Rohan (of LeggoMyMyth and MythWarrior fame) also said "Myth units are shown from a 30º angle from the ground (more or less)". Another tutorial on unitmaking - (authorship unknown - at least by me) says the angle is 25º.

Not trying to start any argument of course, just supplying info. Feel free to ignore.

[Graydon]

Not to argue like Ren, cause it annoys the shit out of me, but I can't actually locate the image right now...

What ozone did was made a map, and he also made a 3d model... he put grid or something on the map to line the camera up in game ... took a screen from zoomed in, and zoomed out, then went into the model program, layed the same cmap grid down, and placed the same models... then overlayed the screens and adjusted the camera in the model app until they matched. I'm pretty sure thats how he derived 22 to 25. I could be mistaken though.. this was several years ago.

Edit: Somehow I don't feel this belongs in general discussion. Lots of info and tips have been given here, this feels more like a mapmaking thread.

[vinylrake]

I'm pretty sure thats how he derived 22 to 25. I could be mistaken though.. this was several years ago.

I trust his calculations. all the older mentions of camera angle were more general 'around 30 degrees' or the like, 25 is around 30 to me.

[Renwood TWA]

Nice gray...real nice.

You ever notice i DONT START it gray? nope? didnt think so.

[William Wallet]

This thread is doing fine without you.

Go back to work.

[Pyro]

WARNING: This will be a long post. Reading quotes are optional. This whole post has nothing to do with the topic at hand, just what Ren said earlier.

Nice gray...real nice.

You ever notice i DONT START it gray? nope? didnt think so.

Hmm, really? I been doing some digging and I can't seem to find any such examples. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but then again you have like 130+ posts so it takes long to look. I did however find these other examples...

• Myth IV thread (Started on April 22, 2008):
  

  ...We (TWA) Dev team members dont really stop by magma forums anymore beacuse its seems to be filled with 90% smart asses who are big critics of things they know little or nothing about. The only people who seem to be worth talking to on the forums here are Carlinho and A-Red and the Project Magma Dev team members...

  Basically in this thread, someone was talking about a hypothetical Myth 4, and people from the TWA group thought he was insulting their TWA project. He wasn't. They only thought this because someone by the same or similar name was on Mnet some other night insulting their work. DA made a joke about how people are going to reply in that thread. VR jokingly poked fun at the name of the TWA project being called "Myth 4". Ren didn't like that and said the following.
  

  Please dont sit there and insult us, then try to not look like a dick by saying "Gee i really cant wait to play it though" that goes for VR and DA.
  
  your like childern throwing stones at a giant crying that he doent notice you exist.
  
  VR and DA get the fuck off the forums and get on Mnet so i can tear you to bits in game you dirty birds you!

  Many more insults (worse and worse) follow in this very thread. The insults died down and stopped somewhere in page 5.
• Anybody know WHO made CBI (COOP Brothers Inc.)? thread (Started on April 27, 2008):
  
  The thread is started by Ren wanting to know info on a plug. VR replies wanting to download it. Ren and VR repling to each other with no anger for a while... as in being nice to one another. On the 6th post in the thread, VR mentions not liking the lack of a unique names for the modified Myth2 maps. This made the list have two of each map when the plug was activated. So VR made a modifed version for personal use. Ren replies saying that he thinks its a bad idea having a slightly modified version lying around and asks VR to remove it. He then says VR and himself could work on updating the plug to make it better. Yet Ren says the following:
  

  so at least around 2,000 people or so have CBI to give you an idea of just how many would need to DL a new version just because the duplicate names bugged you. one thing is for sure you have no right to rerelease a different version IF it will not be compatible with the old one, just based on personal perferrence for a menu display.

  Ren and VR agrue for the better part of the 4 pages of that thread with special guest appearances from ooga, DA, Souly, and even Iron. A few other extras were there too.
• 1.7 stuff thread (Started on May 26, 2008):
  
  The thread starts as some people suggesting stuff for 1.7. One of the suggestions was being able to host films to watch the same film with other players. Ren thinks it wouldn't be too hard to implement. VR disagrees stating that it might seem easy, when you don't know what is involved to make it happen. Which Ren replied by saying this in the 3rd page:
  

  VR you are a moron.
  
  do you even know how to turn on a computer, or just leave it on 24-7-365?

• satchel charges thread (Started on July 02, 2008):
  
  Someone had a question about satchel charges. I, Pyro, reply with stats I got from Myth 2's tag editor "Fear". Ren doesn't seem to believe me and says:
  

  Pyro, i dont think if satchles hit the ground it will alter them in any way or reset them somehow. But then again i havent looked for this in fear.

  I then reply saying I didn't make it up and explain it some more. VR says the following:
  

  heh. Ren, with all the %s and specific details Pyro gave I find it boggling that you would say that you haven't looked up the info but you think he's wrong. Did you really think he just made those numbers up?

  For which Ren says:
  

  I really thought your a dork VR and will dissagree with anything i say.
  
  Sorry VR BUT Ive just blown up A FEW more satchles then pyro in my myth playing/creating for the last 11 years and only questioned IF satchles hitting the ground reset them, not his other info.
  
  And now that i think about it the ground WONT reset them, because ive seen flaming stachles fly through the air and hit the ground, and if this reset (changed odds) them in some way they WOULDNT be on fire still after hitting the ground.
  
  So VR put that flaming satchle in your pipe and smoke it!

  VR and Ren argue for a bit. On the 2nd page I provide more stats and even a test plugin to prove what I said. No one actually adds anything on the topic of sats until page 3 where ooga says that what he was going to say is "pretty much concurrant" with what I said. DA and ooga joined the arguing a bit in that thread as well.
• myth 3 plugins? thread (Started on August 06, 2008):
  
  Some starts to talk about Myth 3 and what others think of it. Some people state their opinions about it including VR. Ren then says the following in the 2nd page of the thread:
  

  Dont take this the wrong way VR...you claim to be into programming and game industry stuff, but you ALLWAYS miss out on the FACT that the myth III project WAS DONE!
  Yes thats right...its called DEADLINES. mumbo jumbo said they would make their myth 3 design dock in an 11 month development cycle, so the game would be ready to ship for the holliday season. (last i heard this was 80-90% of the total video games sales for the year. ...

  Ren also says a lot of other things including his own opinions about the whole thing. VR didn't take what Ren said well. VR says among other things the following:
  

  'Claim' to be into programming? Screw you Ren, my little finger has more programming knowledge than you will know in your entire lifetime. Every time you open your mouth about anything programming related or what is "possible" to do in Myth you drive that point home with a vengeance. ...

  To which Ren replies:
  

  WOW VR way to show your a total pussy bitch ass cunt faced 12 year old CS player.
  
  Next time i see you in marius ill be sure to give you a bunch of shit for being one of the WORST myth players i have ever seen, AND being a total fuckwit.
  
  I wasnt being mean or rude to you in any way...and this is your response. Nice VR... Real Nice

  O yea and you think deadlines are imagineary?
  
  OMG VR you are SUCH a child and you understnad NOTHING about programming.
  
  you fucking childish fuck, please burn in hell soon!

  A few more insult Ren and not much arguing happens after that.
• Where can I even buy this game anymore? thread (Started on August 12, 2008):
  
  Someone was wondering where he could buy Myth. Plugins are mentioned and VR says:
  

  ... I for example play Solo/coop maps a _lot_, but rarely on mariusnet because I often don't have the time to commit to finishing a level in one sitting... I need to save the game and resume it on another day, which is hard to do when you are playing with other people.

  And Ren jokingly says:
  

  Trust me VR, you HAVE the time. You just choose to spend it reading/making forums posts instead of playing with other people online maybe? ~8^)

  Which VR didn't like, and tells Ren he is wrong. The thread died before it could start a flame war between them.
• Hi-Res units ambition. thread (Started on August 02, 2008):
  
  Someone starts a topic about making high resolution versions of Myth II units. Gizmo mentions someone possibly having the original Myth 2 unit models. Ren says the following in the 3rd page:
  

  From what i understand we ALL have the myth 3 3d models, because they are contained on the myth 3 CD.
  
  You might need some kind of extractor to get at them..i dunno i disliked myth 3 so i never looked into it much.
  
  Iron or somebody else that knows CIK well, maybe contact him and ask im if hes still got the tfl or myth 2 models?

  VR tries to explain the logic behind that in a way so that Ren doesn't feel insulted by him. Giz on the other hand says:
  

  ...what a pointless discussion once again ren,... here I am trying to provide information to make things clearer for people...

  Ren isn't happy and replies to that, then Giz replies again saying:
  

  Im a little tired of your nonsense remarks ren, it seems like you try to have a say in everything on this forum without really knowing what youre talking about... I was only trying to give people some info about who has which files, you know, sharing some knowledge, instead of being a smartass...
  
  everybody can be a smartass, now that I think of it, we also all have the M2/TFL models, if we'd come up with a smart image analyzer that could calculate what the 3D model would look like based on the sprites and output that in a usable file format... its simply not what people were asking for now is it?!
  
  oh and good for you you know the myth3 devs, good boy...

  The arguing started in page 3 and died down in page 4. But then Ren gets upset in page 6, which inspired this post.

I looked for examples with the "Renwood" account as well, but most of the angered filled posts made under that account were editted out. I can't seem to find examples of others starting, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. There are lots of threads and posts so I might have missed something.

[iron]

I think the pattern's pretty obvious Pyro ... its also obvious that talking about their past flame wars is almost certainly guaranteed to provoke yet another one.

Maybe we should make a seperate forum called "pointless flames" and have the admins just move appropriate posts there for people to carry on with as they wish without derailing useful threads like this one.

Speaking of which, very nice work Hooligan - a great start, but yes there's obviously a long long way to go before you have a complete hi-res unit set. I contemplated doing this several years ago, but decided against it for a couple of reasons...

Firstly the hi-res renders of Bungie units that I had access to were great, but only some of the units were included not all, and I had neither time nor energy nor animating skill to make all the rest from scratch. You seem to have that in abundance so that's great. If I'd had access to the TFL unit models then it might have been a different story.

Secondly, the idea we had back then was to make it a "patch" that accompanied whatever Myth 2 update we were working on at the time. The idea was that players could choose whether to see units in normal or hi-res, depending on what their system could handle. This wasn't possible though, as when you Amber a unit's collection you have to manually drag sizing boxes for each sequence. The boxes would have been larger in the hi-res set, because the bitmaps were larger ... and then there'd be a sizing ratio in the object tag to bring them down to normal Myth 2 size. The trouble with this is that there is no way to 100% guarantee that the hi-res units would end up exactly the same size in Myth as the Bungie units, so in a multiplayer game a person with hi-res would eventually go OOS versus a person with lo-res units. I hope that all made sense

So in the end, after a lot of work, a hi-res units plugin would be just that, a plugin that either everyone would activate and use ... or more probably, not. It would also be a mapmaking resource. Neither of these outcomes really rocked my boat so I didn't pursue the project.

The upshot of all that rambling is ... you've got a ton of work ahead of you, but have you considered what it'll actually be used for at the end of the road? Not that I want to dissuade you at all, as I think your work is excellent based on that screenshot.

[Pyro]

Yeah Iron, you are probably right. I didn't intend to bring back anger, I just wanted to point out why people might think Ren is the one that starts it.

I think a tagset would be best, that way when a mapmaker creates a new plugin and wants to use the hi res units, they don't make their plug even bigger. You would still need the tagset of course, but at least you can play it without the tagset and it would use the default units.

[GizmoHB]

ahhh, time for another forum post, its been a while...

lets start of by saying that this isnt meant as an insult to anybody, since that seems to be the norm these days to keep from getting flamed, which doesnt really make me want to post information anymore...

your post was way too long Pyro, you cant expect me to read all that! =)

anyway...

the high res unit looks great, some things have already been pointed out by others (boot size, different style face/hands textures...) but for a first render it looks impressive, keep up the good work, watch out with the amount of colors you use and think of the hue changes (you need 2 of them)...

I also noticed he has 3 swords? 1 in each hand and 1 on his back? is that correct?

about the whole angle thing... I had some discussions about this with ozone a while back... from what I remember Ozones tests were based on a myth model of 1 x 1 x 1 placed on the mesh, I personally do not agree with a universal angle for rendering, a taller or (high)flying object should have a different angle than a walking midget (higher above mesh == less of an angle). also most 3D app have lens distortion, based on camera lenses, which could cause some problems with tall objects (large spears for example could end up looking bend).

my advice would be instead of sticking to this 20something degrees, just render a few test frames at different angles, take a zoomed out screenshot of myth with some units in it (a warrior a dwarf and a giant), paste your unit onto it in photoshop and see which 1 of your renders works best, its not a lot of extra work and it would give the optimal result every time.

keep up the good work...

...Giz

[iron]

What Giz said. I always found that the only way to ensure a unit looked "right" in Myth was to actually put it on a map & walk it around.

Another thing re Ozone's test - it matters where the model is placed. If its a ground based unit, think about where you generally move the camera to when controlling such units. Make sure the angle of render makes it look good at that location. Ditto for flying of course, as Gizmo's said the angle should be different.

One thing bears mentioning, and that's the angle of the light source when rendering. TFL's light source was quite high, which resulted in good definition of units' shapes with plenty of contrast and shadows cast on them etc. Myth 2's units had a lower light source that seems to be similar to the camera's origin, and the result is units that look more bland & characterless.

Look at the wight from Myth 2 (even the hi-res one from Frenzy if you prefer) and the wight from TFL. Same model, same textures, different light angle.

[ozone]

DO IT.

[Fortified Hooligan]

I am experimenting with camer angles and lighting now.

Got standing and idle poses. Started walk, but noticed some deformation issues that need to be resolved before i can continue with animating.

I will post some different angles on the stand and idle pose for you.

Yes.

How about we send all our issues to a different thread. A lengthy discussion on the merits of cd storage is cumbersome to wade through to get to issue-related posts.

[William Wallet]

Right on! Keep up the good work, will be interesting to see how you do on the other units.

Here's a question; will you be bothering with things like the Trow, which already (to my mind anyway) had fairly sizeable bitmaps available?

... another question, for anyone in the know :

Do *any* of the Bungie models still exist, anywhere?
This is largely a question of posterity, because even if someone existed who could do something with them, they wouldn't have the time or inclination..

But yeah, did they survive somewhere after Iron's HD meltdown?

[Fortified Hooligan]

I plan on doing everything.

I am looking forward to doing the trow, one of my favorites.

I noticed that sometimes the Heron Guards will attack with just one sword instead of both in game.

is there capacity for more alternate animations like this? say, 3 variants for each unit's swing?