Marathon Anywhere - Release Candidate Posted

[Baak]

The Release Candidate for Marathon Anywhere has been posted on the OoH Battle Plan (at the top). It is v1.12 in keeping with the other current release candidates: Blue & Grey Anywhere and Dorfball Anywhere, which I plan to incorporate into v2.0 of the Anywhere Multi Pak by the end of next week (April 4th). Once I build v2.0 there won't be any changes for several weeks (perhaps longer), so...

*** Please play the Marathon Anywhere plugin by April 3 and provide feedback in this thread (or on the OoH Forums) if you want your opinion heard!! ***


I am mostly concerned now with "gameplay issues" - units that are too weak/slow/fast/strong/whatever. I have simplified the unit substitutions, increased the damage slightly for S'pht and M2 Enforcer units, and made the S'pht'kr smaller so it has less of a problem shooting over terrain. I believe it plays nicely, but only the testing we do between now and April 3 will really tell.

Don't forget: you can play all the Anywhere plugins on Fetchball and Dorfball maps (you don't need the Dorfball tagset for Dorfball maps either), as well as hundreds of multiplayer maps, so try your favorite multiplayer map and let me know how it plays!


Thanks again to Astro tSD et al for the awesome SitH conversion upon which the Marathon Anywhere plugin is based, and of course IronDuke et al for Blue & Grey and Badlands for Dorfball.

[ditwidget]

Love B&G and was hopeful your "anywhere" plug would make it work
correctly on non B&G maps. I don't see how it is any different than
the regular B&G played on third party maps. The cannons still don't
work correctly. It is "huge" to have a killable arty attached to cannon.
Otherwise the balance in the game play is skewed so badly the game
is unplayable.

How is it different? Thanks for your work. I have enjoyed many of the
other "anywhere" tags.

dit

[vinylrake]

How is it different? Thanks for your work. I have enjoyed many of the
other "anywhere" tags.

dit

I am not Baak, but my understanding is that the way it is different is in the number and variety of 3rd party maps the AW version will let you play B&G on. Not that a sane person would want to, but for example - if you ever wanted to play a Civil War Soccer game, then you could play Blue and Grey AW on the Fetchball map.

[Baak]

Love B&G and was hopeful your "anywhere" plug would make it work
correctly on non B&G maps. I don't see how it is any different than
the regular B&G played on third party maps. The cannons still don't
work correctly. It is "huge" to have a killable arty attached to cannon.
Otherwise the balance in the game play is skewed so badly the game
is unplayable.

How is it different? Thanks for your work. I have enjoyed many of the
other "anywhere" tags.

dit

Very glad to hear you enjoy the series - I've had great fun making them.

I understand on the killable arty attached to the cannon. The only way to do it in a tagset is to have a "weaker" cannon, since you can't attach units to each other without scripting (scripting can only be done on a map by map basis). I have a feeling the B&G Anywhere v1.12 [RC] does not substitute for the weaker cannons in the case of Warlocks and Fetch, but should. I have put it down on my list to be sure to include in the v2.0 version.

Keep in mind that we can not only adjust the "hit points" of a weaker cannon, but we can adjust its attack to better balance gameplay. This is the kind of feedback I need from people like you.


That's part of what makes the Anywhere versions different. It can be one or more of the following that distinguishes them from the original tagsets:

Simplicity - Most tagsets substitute for all units. This means if the original map had 30 units on a team, you will get 30 converted units. For most of the conversions I've Anywhere-ized this is waaaaay too difficult to manage, either because it is too complicated or too much firepower. In cases where it makes sense I convert some units into "nothing" (a little trick I came up with for Rocket Dorf Fest and Uber Ghol Riot), which makes the game much more playable. Case in point is MythWarrior where having 12 units instead of 30 is a big plus.

Flexibility - One of the things I requested long ago in one of the excellent Magma Patches was the ability to "stack" plugins so they layered properly. This means you can build tagsets that substitute for more than the "standard" Myth units - but you have to know what those units are and how they should be substituted. There are currently 675 different units from our most-played multiplayer maps that are substituted in the Anywhere series. What does this mean? A simple example is the fact that you can play all of the Anywhere plugins on maps like Lichen (note that on Lichen Legendary you have to keep the "General" alive for reinforcements - with B&G I convert that unit to a Cannon):



The original tagset wouldn't substitute there because all the units have a different name from the standard ones (e.g. "80 archer" instead of "archer"). Similarly, on most third-party maps the original tagsets will give you a mix of correctly converted and standard Myth units (picture MythWarrior mechs standing next to Warlocks or Thrall - doh!). Finally, Anywhere plugins will work on Magma's TFL Multiplayer maps whereas the original tagsets will not. Bottom line: you get to play these conversions "Anywhere" - hence the name.

In addition, 70+ projectiles are converted when appropriate into ammo or "nothing" so you don't see Pus when playing MythWarrior or you get TNT instead of Pus on Wild West or you get random WWII items with WWII. A little more Anywhere magic to make it all more consistent - and fun!

Building Tagsets where none existed before - MythWarrior, Wild West, Worlds Collide, A Very Idiot Christmas/Halloween, and Dorfball never existed as a stand-alone tagset - you could only play them on their original maps. Now you can play them all over the place! Dorfball Anywhere is even a completely new game when played somwhere other than a Dorfball map.

New Ways of Playing Some Tagsets - WWII Anywhere is a completely different game from the original WWII Tagset. It gives you just a few soldiers and randomly distributes WWII items across the map differently every game. Dorfball Anywhere (v1.12 [RC] and later) is a completely different Dorfball game you can play on your favorite maps (Gimble, etc.) and also includes randomly distributed Special Dorfballs. UGR/UGRmini is similar - projectiles distributed randomly at the start of each and every game.

Gameplay Balance Adjustments - Whenever necessary I do this while doing my very best to keep the original intention/feel of the tagset in place. For example: ADT and MythWarrior have major gameplay adjustments that make them play much better than the originals imo. Some of this can be new features (from Patch 1.5/1.6) but is usually a combination of new features and actual adjustments to gameplay itself. At all times I do my best to make these changes such that you don't notice them - you only notice that the game plays better. This is why it is important to get feedback from players such as yourself - it's much better as a cooperative venture. As I continue to get feedback, I will compile a list and incorporate changes into future releases.

Bugfixes - There are little things that slip through any project. When I find them during the Anywhere conversion process, I fix them. You'd be surprised how many little things there are. Two quick examples that come to mind from Leggo: Saiyan units can spawn an extra head when they explode (looks odd); the Leggo Steal the Bacon ball was using the non-team-colored "dragon ball" which I replaced with the properly team-colored "giant m&m" (gameplay fix). Some tagsets like Leggo and Bushido were using standard unit substitutions directly (replacing Warriors with new units) - in order to substitute properly I had to rebuild these as distinct units. Lots of that kind of thing going on "under the hood".

Playing on Fetchball and Dorfball Maps - I've always loved Dorfball, and been frustrated at not being able to play other things on the Fetchball map, so I delved deep into Fear and came up with the ability to play every one of the Anywhere plugins on both maps. All units can pick up and toss the original Fetchball (using their Special) and all units can pick up and toss Special Dorfballs (using their Special):

Blue & Grey on Fetchball (note that half your units are "nothing" so you have less to manage):


Blue & Grey on Dorfball (you can trade for different units). Note that the "Referees" are indestructible unless you add the separate "{{ No Dorfball Refs }}" plugin, which eliminates them completely, allowing for playing Steal the Bacon or CtF much more easily. Each Anywhere plugin substitutes differently, including Dorfballs themselves (some drop ammo, some leave out some ball types, etc.). Note the Soldier below has picked up a Purple Dorfball (it's in his Status Bar - something we could never see before in Dorfball):


Advanced Layering - The Anywhere plugins are also built in such a way that you could play Blue & Grey on a Wild West map - or vice versa. The only tricky thing is with maps that normally require a separate tagset (such as Blue & Grey or ADT), you need to have the original tagset active along with the Anywhere plugin you want to play. This is so all the scenery and other items are loaded properly (and so we don't have to include every single map's scenery in every plugin which would get big!). To play ADT on Blue & Grey you do: "{ ADT aw20 }", "B&G Tagset", "B&G Levelmap". Slightly advanced but very fun! Note that you do not have to do this to play Anywhere plugins on a Dorfball map - all the tagset stuff is built-in. Just do "{ Blue&Grey aw20 }" on "Dorfball Avon's Grove" and you're good to go.

[Frumius]

Baak, you madman, I'm so glad you're on our side. That is such excellent work.

[Baak]

Baak, you madman, I'm so glad you're on our side. That is such excellent work.

lol - thanks, Frum!



dit: I've posted a v1.13 of Blue & Grey Anywhere on the OoH Battle Plan that now substitutes "weak" Cannons for Fetch and Warlocks (I substitute them for Barons to make Assassin more interesting as well). v1.13 also fixes a bug with four empty projectile groups from the original tagset that causes it to crash on some third-party maps like Mudpit Mega Mix.

It's interesting - I chatted with Iron regarding the weak cannons when first diving into the conversion and I have a feeling they were always meant to be in the Tagset to substitute for Fetch and Warlocks, but for some reason it was substituting the original tougher ones. One of those little things we can now rectify to the author's original intent.

Let's see how this plays now and please let me know if you have any other feedback - all of it is most welcome as I consider this kind of thing a "joint effort" to get it all to its best possible form.

[Baak]

Wow.

We played our weekly match tonight and it was almost entirely Marathon Anywhere and Blue & Grey Anywhere. It was awesome.

The unit balance on Marathon Anywhere plays really nicely. I'm going to revert my only damage tweak (I made S'phts give a little more damage), and add a couple of very minor other tweaks (Juggernauts shouldn't flinch; the Beachball shouldn't convert to bacon on maps) and see what anyone else has to contribute before I release it as v2.0 later this week (by Friday the 4th). Having Juggernauts as assassin targets is so fun! (we played on the StoneHeart RDF v4.1g beta - Frenzy map)


I have to say to Astro tSD et al: the SitH/Marathon conversion is nothing less than outstanding. Really impressive stuff. I'm hoping the Anywhere version lets that many more people play and appreciate it (one of the primary goals of the whole Anywhere series).

Same goes for Iron et al on Blue & Grey: dang, that's an impressive conversion! It really feels like the Civil War! The battle action is extremely realistic - the gunfire, cannon fire, smoke, chaos, all of it. And having the weak cannons in there makes all the difference when not playing on the B&G maps imo. Fantastic stuff.


We'll play these both some more this week and after everything is in Anywhere v2.0 we can always compile additional changes to put in a v2.1 down the road.

Great work guys!

[ditwidget]

Thanks for the detailed response and the "weak cannon" change.
I am very impressed by your work and now by your inclusive approach.
I love these games and wish I had the time and talent required to
make maps and plugs myself. Thankfully there are creative folks like yourself that keep "Myth" an awesome and progressive pastime.

dit

[vinylrake]

Very glad to hear you enjoy the series - I've had great fun making them.

KNowing a teenie bit of the amount of thought and work that have gone into your AW plugins, I am sure that what you call "fun" would drive most people (even geeky myth mapmakers) insane. I am though very glad that you call all that work "fun", because the results are definitely fun for the rest of us.

[iron]

What you're doing is simply awesome Baak

[Grayswandir]

Awesome work on the Marathon Anywhere plugin. I've been enjoying it recently. Being a fan of Marathon, I was having fun rampaging around with a Juggernaught in the last few levels of the Myth II campaign. I did notice something strange though (besides having the joy of running rampant with Fl'ickta :p ), the BoBs and a few other units (BoBs specifically), when they're under your control do not auto-target and fire once enemies get into activation range, they only attack without command if they're attacked first. I don't know if it was by design or not, it just means you have to manage your targets a bit more than usual.

[Baak]

What you're doing is simply awesome Baak

Thanks, iron!

Awesome work on the Marathon Anywhere plugin. I've been enjoying it recently. Being a fan of Marathon, I was having fun rampaging around with a Juggernaught in the last few levels of the Myth II campaign. I did notice something strange though (besides having the joy of running rampant with Fl'ickta :p ), the BoBs and a few other units (BoBs specifically), when they're under your control do not auto-target and fire once enemies get into activation range, they only attack without command if they're attacked first. I don't know if it was by design or not, it just means you have to manage your targets a bit more than usual.

Good catch on the BoBs! I thought something wasn't quite right with them when we played on Saturday - their activation settings are slightly off. I will definitely put this on "the list" (I'm pushing to get an update out by Friday, hopefully to the entire set).

Do keep in mind the bulk of the credit goes to the original plugin creators - I'm just doing the "Anywhere-izing" and repackaging of them with the tweaks outlined above. It's a lot of work, and I'm proud to get more people playing them by doing all of it, but the amount of work and creativity involved in the originals is simply mind-blowing imo.

Case in point is the Marathon conversion by Astro tSD et al (the "Somewhere in the Heavens" Tagset). It blows me away when we play it. I swear it's more fun now than the original game (omg) - perhaps because it's such a funky-cool synthesis of all things we love about Bungie. I'm putting in tweaks to bring 1.6 features to bear on almost every unit (where appropriate), and believe the unit substitutions in the Anywhere plugin are excellent (simplifies things and lets you focus on the superb aspects of the conversion). Having Juggernaughts for Barons is sweet for Assassin games (I do this on most of the Anywhere plugins - toughest unit as Assassin target - great fun). Thanks to lank for spotting they shouldn't "flinch" (that tweak is going in too).

If the Anywhere Multiplayer plugins work on the solo games that's great, but they're definitely not designed with that in mind. Some will work, some won't - just depends on whether or not the unit substitutions and unit attacks make sense with the corresponding dark units. I'm likely to update my "Anywhere vs. Myth" solo set after these are done (where you play converted units against standard Myth units) and am debating making a handful of completely converted solos - likely a project for "down the road".

[Grayswandir]

Having Juggernaughts for Barons is sweet for Assassin games (I do this on most of the Anywhere plugins - toughest unit as Assassin target - great fun).

I wonder if the Baron in the single player campaign turns into a Think What Kicks Our Asses...have to find out...heh heh heh...

If the Anywhere Multiplayer plugins work on the solo games that's great, but they're definitely not designed with that in mind. Some will work, some won't - just depends on whether or not the unit substitutions and unit attacks make sense with the corresponding dark units. I'm likely to update my "Anywhere vs. Myth" solo set after these are done (where you play converted units against standard Myth units) and am debating making a handful of completely converted solos - likely a project for "down the road".

Aaah...okay, I was going to ask why the warriors turned into Fl'ickta.

[Baak]

Aaah...okay, I was going to ask why the warriors turned into Fl'ickta.

Heh - yep - to do the solos right you have to have separate substitutions for the light and dark units. It's definitely on my list to do a Marathon Solo AW plugin.


[edit] I notice that the Marines and BoB's all have the low activation settings, possibly to avoid all the units auto-firing (which can be good or bad depending on the situation), although Marine TOZT's do have different values. It could be that the settings were left alone - it could be settings were forgotten.

I could see having the Marines not auto-fire until enemies are close, but have the BoB's fire sooner. I also want to have the S'phts not fire straight through all the friendly units, as that can be rather nasty.

I'll put these changes in this next iteration and we can see how it plays.

[Grayswandir]

Haha, I was just about to post about the activation ranges on those units. Two other things I noticed: The Hunters also have a low activation rate and the S'pht take no damage from Enforcers and when they're being shot, their energy bolts go flying off in random directions, this seems to only happen when fighting Enforcers though.

Another random thing that might be of interest: Marathon Anywhere is compatible with Across the Gjol III (TFL) and Shadow of the Mountain III...although the balance is off a bit and Across the Gjol III doesn't end, it might be something to check out if you want to try something crazy.